Questions regarding the stability and control of the Mustang

[Pajeezy]

So I don't have too much experience with DCS yet, nor do I have real world pilot experience, but my dad is a licensed pilot (smaller aircraft) and I just purchased the P-51D for him for Christmas. It's his (and my) favorite airplane, so I figured he'd get a kick out of it. He plays FSX all the time but isn't too familiar with DCS.

 

I asked him how it was going today after I got off of work and he said that (after a few hours of messing around) he doesn't like it. He says the aircraft is too hard to control and thinks that it's actually not realistic. He claims that the controls are responding, well, not the way he's giving input. For instance, when he's trying to make simple maneuvers, he says the airplane will "flip out" and not do what he's telling it to do.

 

I feel like perhaps (since this isn't FSX and is very realistic) he just isn't doing something right...I did watch him play a little bit and the Mustang does seem to flop around, like a lot, from side to side when trying to keep it straight and level (when giving minor inputs). Are there any settings in the aircraft besides trim to tame it a little bit? I already messed with the joystick settings, changing his pitch, roll and rudder deadzones and curvatures to make it much less unstable, but I guess to no avail.

 

I really don't want him to give up on this, as I believe DCS has done a wonderful job and I think he'd enjoy it exponentially more if we got over this little hump. Any insight would be awesome.

[Fifi]

Hmm...i'm afraid it's coming from your side...hardware or commands mapping, i don't know.

I can assure you P51 is fine here, and can do all kind of manoeuvres without "flipping out", as far as i'm gentle on stick, and respecting this warbird flying caracteristics.

Maybe you should have a look on the P51 DCS full manual? Very informative reference.

Your father should stick on it and don't give up! It took a while for me to fly it correctely, anyway :thumbup:

[Echo38]

This issue has been discussed to death and back. Bottom line is: the problem is with our shoddy plastic joysticks, not the sim. Try to fly a real aircraft with nothing more than what we're using, and you'll have the same problems.

[Paganus]

I suggest he add a nice curve to the pitch and roll at least. Our short throw desktop controls don't translate very well with a longer floor mounted stick.

 

That and a little seat time is all most folks need to get her under control.

 

If you look at some youtube's of the DCS pony in action you'll see plenty of examples of high precision flying. It's not too hard once you get things dialed in.

 

Don't let him give up on it yet. It's a true joy to fly.

[EvilBivol-1]

Having watched many real pilots fly the sim, it's often the case that's it's actually harder for them to adjust to the control requirements than it is for non-pilot video gamers, especially ones with previous flight sim experience. You're dealing with realistic handling, but without the realistic physical environment, and this can be a barrier to overcome initially.

 

I would suggest that you ask your dad to take a little time to try to get used to the aircraft's handling. Turn on the controls indicator with RCTRL + ENTER, so he can monitor the position of the stick and approximately how much pull it takes (not much!) before the planes begins to wing over. If you do this slowly enough, you will begin to see and hear the warning buffet of the impending stall and, with a little practice, will soon be able to feel this without even checking the controls indicator. The other major difficulty is slip control. Slip makes it even more likely that you will stall when pulling the stick back, so it's very important to keep your eye on the ball and constantly adjust. The slip tendency changes with airspeed and power setting changes, so it is something that requires constant attention. I think that's all it is, really - minding the amount if stick pull and slip angles. Small inputs.

 

It may also help a little to turn on the "Head movement with G-forces" option (or simply press LWIN+F1 in-game to toggle this on-off). This may give a slightly better sense of sideslip via the modeled head "bobbing".

Edited December 26, 2013 by EvilBivol-1

[Pajeezy]

Thanks everyone for the excellent guidance. I have to get used to sideslip as well. How does one correct for sideslip? Simply rudder trim and/or applying the rudder during?

 

Also, I just witnessed one thing he was talking about. During a turn, if he goes to pull on the stick for a tighter turn, the aircraft begins to shudder and then "flips out" as I said before. It basically just like flips over to turn the opposite direction. What is causing this? Is the Mustang simply unable to perform tight maneuvers?

[sydost]

Use rudder to correct slip. Simply gently press the pedal which is on the same side as the ball. Step on the ball as the old phrase says. You can use the rudder trim if you need to apply constant pressure to the pedal to keep the ball centered for example when flying straight. When turning you can use the pedals to correct slip as it is only a short term manouvre.

 

I think you should try to reduce the fuel amount so that the rear tank is empty. It should make the plane easier to fly, less sensitive to controls and thus less prone to stalling (the flipping) as the center of gravity is more forward. I have understood that the rear fuel tank is removed from most P-51s which are still flying. I don't remember the exact amount which puts fuel only to the wings. Try something like 50% fuel. The plane is lighter too and hence easier to manouver.

[Fifi]

This, and you have to "feel" the plane when doing tight manoeuvres.

P51 is prone to nasty stalls at any speed when not carefull on the stick!

High altitudes manouvres are the worst for me.

[Foul Ole Ron]

Also, I just witnessed one thing he was talking about. During a turn, if he goes to pull on the stick for a tighter turn, the aircraft begins to shudder and then "flips out" as I said before. It basically just like flips over to turn the opposite direction. What is causing this? Is the Mustang simply unable to perform tight maneuvers?

 

Do a search in the manual for accelerated stall. You can also Google accelerated stall + P51 for more information and probably see some YouTube examples of it actually happening. Due to the laminar wing design the P51 was prone to accelerated stalls if certain limits weren't respected. With our short throw joysticks it takes a while to get a good feel for where these limits are. The Mustang will warn you as you get near them. The DCS Mustang is very different to something like IL2 where you could throw the joystick around the place - here you have to be smoother with the inputs.

 

In page 101 of the manual there's a diagram showing where such stalls occur for various speeds for a P51 with a gross weight of 9,000lbs. If your Dad is flying with more fuel / ordinance so the weight is over 9,000lbs the limits will be lower. Hopefully your Dad won't get discouraged - it'll take practice to get used to it all but the flight model has the seal of approval from the Fighter Collection and the Horsemen who fly the real thing so if he loves the Mustang he has a chance to virtually fly a very close model in DCS.

[markwilliam]

So I don't have too much experience with DCS yet, nor do I have real world pilot experience, but my dad is a licensed pilot (smaller aircraft) and I just purchased the P-51D for him for Christmas. It's his (and my) favorite airplane, so I figured he'd get a kick out of it. He plays FSX all the time but isn't too familiar with DCS.

 

I asked him how it was going today after I got off of work and he said that (after a few hours of messing around) he doesn't like it. He says the aircraft is too hard to control and thinks that it's actually not realistic. He claims that the controls are responding, well, not the way he's giving input. For instance, when he's trying to make simple maneuvers, he says the airplane will "flip out" and not do what he's telling it to do.

 

I feel like perhaps (since this isn't FSX and is very realistic) he just isn't doing something right...I did watch him play a little bit and the Mustang does seem to flop around, like a lot, from side to side when trying to keep it straight and level (when giving minor inputs). Are there any settings in the aircraft besides trim to tame it a little bit? I already messed with the joystick settings, changing his pitch, roll and rudder deadzones and curvatures to make it much less unstable, but I guess to no avail.

 

I really don't want him to give up on this, as I believe DCS has done a wonderful job and I think he'd enjoy it exponentially more if we got over this little hump. Any insight would be awesome.

 

YES!!!!! I understand everything you are saying! 99% of the people posting here don't find this to be any big deal. But I have to agree with you 100%. This plane does not fly like a P-51 would fly. Now...I am not a pilot but I do work with a lot of pilots. I paint logos on WWII AC. So I know people who have flown a P-51. I have a good friend who restores WWII planes and has flown a P-51 several times. He spent about 10 minutes on this sim before he told me that he hated it and it was just wrong.

But!!! He also said the same about Xplane. He did like Xplane because some of the heavier AC were very accurate. He also said the even though both sims are off, Xplane was a lot closer to the real P-51. But he said that both sims were way off. But to his mind....DCS was just ridiculous.

Before I get attacked (and I will). I just want to say that after getting use to DCS, I enjoy it very much. There are aspects of this sim that I find to be great fun. But I had to get around the hokeyness of the way this sim controls, and always argued that it is by no means (other than visually) an accurate depiction of how a P-51 should fly.

So in conclusion, I really like DCS. But I know that no matter what people on this or any forum say, it is not just like the real deal. I play it for what it is.

I also have the A-10a, and c. And again...I took one Vietnam error A-10 pilot and one pilot who currently flies out of Davis Monthan AFB and both said that the DCS A-10 is only a fraction as manuverable as the ones they fly. They said it was much harder to control and too easy to lose control of. And both were just annoyed with all of the configurations of buttons.

I just started flying the A-10C and I told the A-10 forum that I probably won't even use it because I just don't have the time to learn the overly detailed systems. And both of my A-10 pilots told me the same thing. And I was very pleased to hear the one who I had watch the tutorial videos say that he wouldn't want to fly the A-10 as a casual gamer because the instructions are only half as detailed as the craft and they don't explain what most of this stuff is. They seem to go on the assumption that your already a pilot when your doing this.

So even though I enjoy the P-51, I still take it for what it is....a game that handles like a game.

The A-10.......in my opinion, too many people with way too much time on their hands. I won't play it.

[Pman]

YES!!!!! I understand everything you are saying! 99% of the people posting here don't find this to be any big deal. But I have to agree with you 100%. This plane does not fly like a P-51 would fly. Now...I am not a pilot but I do work with a lot of pilots. I paint logos on WWII AC. So I know people who have flown a P-51. I have a good friend who restores WWII planes and has flown a P-51 several times. He spent about 10 minutes on this sim before he told me that he hated it and it was just wrong.

But!!! He also said the same about Xplane. He did like Xplane because some of the heavier AC were very accurate. He also said the even though both sims are off, Xplane was a lot closer to the real P-51. But he said that both sims were way off. But to his mind....DCS was just ridiculous.

Before I get attacked (and I will). I just want to say that after getting use to DCS, I enjoy it very much. There are aspects of this sim that I find to be great fun. But I had to get around the hokeyness of the way this sim controls, and always argued that it is by no means (other than visually) an accurate depiction of how a P-51 should fly.

So in conclusion, I really like DCS. But I know that no matter what people on this or any forum say, it is not just like the real deal. I play it for what it is.

I also have the A-10a, and c. And again...I took one Vietnam error A-10 pilot and one pilot who currently flies out of Davis Monthan AFB and both said that the DCS A-10 is only a fraction as manuverable as the ones they fly. They said it was much harder to control and too easy to lose control of. And both were just annoyed with all of the configurations of buttons.

I just started flying the A-10C and I told the A-10 forum that I probably won't even use it because I just don't have the time to learn the overly detailed systems. And both of my A-10 pilots told me the same thing. And I was very pleased to hear the one who I had watch the tutorial videos say that he wouldn't want to fly the A-10 as a casual gamer because the instructions are only half as detailed as the craft and they don't explain what most of this stuff is. They seem to go on the assumption that your already a pilot when your doing this.

So even though I enjoy the P-51, I still take it for what it is....a game that handles like a game.

The A-10.......in my opinion, too many people with way too much time on their hands. I won't play it.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=111388

 

Enough said

 

Unless your Mate has more experience then the 3 pilots who fly in the Bremont Horsemen and the 2 Mr Greys from The Fighter Collection then I am sorry I will believe these guys

 

Simple as that

 

Pman

[markwilliam]

Look. I don't care what a bunch of total strangers on a forum tell me. I know what 3 experienced pilots that I watched try and fly both this and Xplane told me. Now....I see everyone's words here on this forum. But I personally watched 3 guys who knew these planes in and out tell me that this sim is inaccurate.

So....nuff said! you got stories on the internet. I saw what I saw and was told what I was told by real human beings....not some internet ad, page, or testimonial.

I'll stick with my actual real world experience. Contrary to popular belief by many......they are aloud to lie on the internet. But when I have a retired combat veteran A-10 (a Col none the less) pilot sitting here in front of me asking me how the heck do ya fly this thing....I'll take reality over written stories any day.

[Nate--IRL--]

Consider adjusting the input curves, it completely changes the feel and oversensitivity of your hardware and allows for fingertip control of the aircraft.

 

Nate

[Pman]

Look. I don't care what a bunch of total strangers on a forum tell me. I know what 3 experienced pilots that I watched try and fly both this and Xplane told me. Now....I see everyone's words here on this forum. But I personally watched 3 guys who knew these planes in and out tell me that this sim is inaccurate.

So....nuff said! you got stories on the internet. I saw what I saw and was told what I was told by real human beings....not some internet ad, page, or testimonial.

I'll stick with my actual real world experience. Contrary to popular belief by many......they are aloud to lie on the internet. But when I have a retired combat veteran A-10 (a Col none the less) pilot sitting here in front of me asking me how the heck do ya fly this thing....I'll take reality over written stories any day.

 

Just an FYI

 

I was THERE when then horsemen and the greys flew it, as well as Steve Hinton Jnr who just won Reno again in a Mustang...

 

So if they tell me its good, then I will take their word for it :)

 

Pman

[ZaltysZ]

So I don't have too much experience with DCS yet, nor do I have real world pilot experience, but my dad is a licensed pilot (smaller aircraft) and I just purchased the P-51D for him for Christmas. It's his (and my) favorite airplane, so I figured he'd get a kick out of it. He plays FSX all the time but isn't too familiar with DCS.

 

I asked him how it was going today after I got off of work and he said that (after a few hours of messing around) he doesn't like it. He says the aircraft is too hard to control and thinks that it's actually not realistic. He claims that the controls are responding, well, not the way he's giving input. For instance, when he's trying to make simple maneuvers, he says the airplane will "flip out" and not do what he's telling it to do.

 

I feel like perhaps (since this isn't FSX and is very realistic) he just isn't doing something right...I did watch him play a little bit and the Mustang does seem to flop around, like a lot, from side to side when trying to keep it straight and level (when giving minor inputs). Are there any settings in the aircraft besides trim to tame it a little bit? I already messed with the joystick settings, changing his pitch, roll and rudder deadzones and curvatures to make it much less unstable, but I guess to no avail.

 

I really don't want him to give up on this, as I believe DCS has done a wonderful job and I think he'd enjoy it exponentially more if we got over this little hump. Any insight would be awesome.

 

It sounds a bit like a control issue, like spiking input or control conflict. DCS P51 can be twitchy at the edges of envelope, but if you are smooth with it, even large corrections should not be a problem. Remove all deadzones and curvatures, give your dad to fly it and then upload a track here. Alternatively, press LCTRL+ENTER and observe control positions in red square while your dad flies. Look for violent jumps or jitter.

 

P.S:

#1: "controls are responding, well, not the way he's giving input" - this can be a result of deadzones/curves.

#2: there is "rudder assist" setting. I don't know how to ride the pony with it turned on. Maybe your dad would be better with that setting off too. :)

Edited December 27, 2013 by ZaltysZ

[VH-Rock]

Look. I don't care what a bunch of total strangers on a forum tell me. I know what 3 experienced pilots that I watched try and fly both this and Xplane told me. Now....I see everyone's words here on this forum. But I personally watched 3 guys who knew these planes in and out tell me that this sim is inaccurate.

So....nuff said! you got stories on the internet. I saw what I saw and was told what I was told by real human beings....not some internet ad, page, or testimonial.

I'll stick with my actual real world experience. Contrary to popular belief by many......they are aloud to lie on the internet. But when I have a retired combat veteran A-10 (a Col none the less) pilot sitting here in front of me asking me how the heck do ya fly this thing....I'll take reality over written stories any day.

 

Indeed, I personally have been present when the following pilots have flown DCS P-51:

 

• Steve Hinton - Without question, the most experienced warbird pilot around
  
• Steve Hinton Jr - Current 5 time Reno Air Race World Champion (All in P-51's)
  
• Stephen Grey - Has owned and flown 4 P-51s, extremely experienced pilot.
  
• Nick Grey - Regularly flies The Fighter Collection's P-51
  
• Dan Friedkin - Owns 8 P-51s, flies them regularly, 1000+ hours on type, current right wing pilot for the Bremont Horsemen.
  
• Ed Shipley - Over 2000 hours on type, current left wing pilot for the Bremont Horsemen
  
• Matt Nightingale - Extremely experienced warbird restorer and pilot.
  

 

None of these are 'stories on the internet' for us - Myself and Pman were present when these pilots tried DCS and spoke to them directly after. Infact, with the exception of Nick Grey, they all flew DCS on my system that I'm sitting at home using now... All of them loved DCS and felt that it gave the most accurate representation of a Mustang in a sim to date.

 

Dan Friedkin did the most in depth test of DCS, taking the Mustang up and he was trying out various stalls to see if it matched his expectations - In each case, it did. One thing he said he struggled with was the lack of feel which, which is the case for any flight sim as there is no physical way for us to feel the movement of the aircraft.

 

So, having personally witnessed some of the most experienced P-51 Pilots around fly DCS and not witnessed a single major complaint, I'm thoroughly convinced by their feedback. Nick Grey once said that you needed to have 'Silk hands' to fly the Mustang well...

 

In reference to people saying that the slightest movement causes an accelerated stall, I refer you to this video of me leading my wingman through some formation aerobatics. If she was really as unstable as is being claimed, this would be simply impossible...

 

 

 

The best tip I can give you is to get some stick time, she's beautiful when you understand her

[willzah1313]

Markwilliam, can your friends give any specific fact based reasons why they think its so innacurate? How much time did they really spend with the sim? Did they try to match numbers on any real world maneuvers? This sim is very much right on the numbers in every aspect of the published information AFAIK. As far as how it feels, well thats something we simmers still have to imagine, so if your not used to that, then I can see how maybe it would seem off. Also no sim is yet perfect, many of us here are making the case that this is not only very very close, but may be the best flight model I have ever experienced, and reminds me the most of my real world flying experinence(not in a mustang mind you) Keep in mind that you don't have a real stick attached to the flight controls with real world slipstream forces to overcome, its very easy to deflect your desktop joystick fully at 350mph, not so much IRL, see?

[Fabri91]

Check the axis assignments, especially if this is the first time you install DCS on his PC! What happened to me was that, for example, the pitch axis was assigned to both the joystick's pitch control as well as, for some reason, one of the axis of the rudder pedals.

 

Result: nothing made sense at first.

[EvilBivol-1]

He spent about 10 minutes on this sim before he told me that he hated it and it was just wrong.

10 minutes? Very unlikely that any player, especially a real world pilot who is coming with the physical experience of the real cockpit, real controls, real G forces, will have much of an accurate impression of the sim and its flight dynamics within 10 minutes. If you really want a "clean" test from a pilot who is new to DCS, you normally need to spend some time helping to configure the controls and "translate" the sim controls to his memory of the real experience. For example I've also had an A-10 pilot tell me that the A-10C in DCS feels too cumbersome, until I pointed out that he is flying a simple Instant Action mission where he is fully loaded with weapons and fuel, much heavier than what he is used to flying in the real world.

[Buznee]

I am no mustang pilot but I do fly small single engine piston aircraft. I agree that most sims feel "off" to most real world pilots because they are just not set up properly on the control stiffness, travel and sensitivity but most of the time the pilot will blame the simulator rather than the setup of the controls. For example try to fly the mustang with a linear pitch and roll. Than try it again with 20% curve and 15% on the rudder. Also try to fly the mustang with a short throw stick, try again with a stick with an extension on it. Also different levels of spring force and stiffness on the stick can make a world of a difference. I was told that the mustang has very stiff controls and require quite a bit of muscle to work especially at the higher speeds. This combined with larger throw on the stick will make the aircraft feel gentler and less twitchy, but you can get this feel out of DCS just by tweaking your controls.

 

A rule of thumb I use is, I look at the stick travel in the sim and match it as best as I can with my real controls. If I don't have enough travel with my real stick than I start using curves to get me most of the way there on the inboard throws of the stick. Makes world of a difference. I do agree also that most real world pilots have issues with sims because of the lack of feel and lack of immersion, depth with standard monitors. I can't wait for oculus because I think that the Rift will be a great improvement in this respect. It will add peripheral, depth of field and head tracking all in one.

 

Another example is where the stick is mounted on your sim setup. Is it a side stick, is your seat set up ergonomically to get you the right leverage and control out of your stick. I for example have built a center stick mount to get the control in the right place. I am also in the process of adding a stick extension, when doing this I will be able to remove some of my curve. I also plan on adding rubber blocks behind my rudder pedal to get an improved feel on the brakes, I do this also for racing sims. I'm sure the pedals on a real mustang are much stiffer than most pedals in sims, Most real aircraft rudder pedals are not the easiest things to move. The harder a control is to move the less you are prone to get into pilot induced oscillation. Twist sticks are terrible for most aircraft that do not have nice fly by wire stability. Too much work, too much coupling on a single control.

 

Other than control feel, frame rates and visual cues play a huge role as well. Try to fly the mustang with 20 fps and try again with over 100 fps with a high refresh monitor. World of a difference. So don't be so quick as to blame the sim! There are other factors in play here! Also when blaming a sim don't just say it doesn't "feel" right, or it flops around. Be more specific! Is it getting into tip stall conditions while coordinated? What control setup are you using? Where is it mounted? What frame rates are you getting? What FOV are you using? Are you using rudder pedals? which ones? Are you using deadzones or curves for your controls? All of these can make it or break it on a sim. Sims are sensitive things.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Buznee

[markwilliam]

My my my....we're a defensive bunch aren't we..........

 

Like I initially posted, I like DCS. I enjoy playing it. I'm not disputing whether its a good game or not. I'm not saying its bad at all. What I am saying is that when anyone I have ever had fly this thing was a pilot, it took them no time at all to dismiss it's claims that it flies like the real deal. But you guys are so defensive about it that you are looking past 99% of the picture.

1. You do not get the sensation of G forces in any sim that's on your home computer. This makes a big difference in feel and reduces your judgement as a pilot to know exactly how steep or subtle your turning banks are. Even so...DCS is more limited than the real plane. I have flown in Cesnas that in real life seem to out turn this P-51. I have likewise been told this by a number of pilots. But who cares....I adjusted and play the game.

2. The world distance judgement is worlds different on a computer screen than in real life. So you cannot use your binary vision to establish depth or distance from a given object.

3. These planes aren't friggin real guys. Their computer likenesses. That makes a huuuuge difference.

4. Even the joystick itself is problematic. In a real P-51, you have a real stick that's attached to cables beneath the floor. The stick is over 2 feet long. Your rudder is all rigging. Theres no way on god's green earth you ar going to pull these characteristics out of a computer game. If there were a way.....they'ed be training real pilots with this stuff. But they're not. And there is a reason for that.

You can fly Xplane (they claim to be the best) and do touch and goes on a runway. It takes less than 1/2 the time for you to go around the airport in a P-51 in Xplane than it does the P-51 in DCS. Same distances, speeds, everything. yet the two are so different that you cannot even compare them. Who's right? Both claim to be.

 

Now....Xplane, DCS, and FSX have tons of people like the one guy there who has seen all these great aces play the game who swear by every pilot that ever lived that their simulator is the one. This sim is just like sitting in the real deal. In fact....all three companies make that same claim and all say they can back it up with real pilot's testimony. Yet all three fly so completely different that there is no friggin way that any 2 of them can be correct in their claim. And...the pilots that I have been around when they've played DCS have all said....It's overly done. Too hard to keep the plane steady in hard maneuvering. Turn radiuses are way off. And no matter how you adjust your stick, when you get to that point where the plane shakes......it's just not real. All of the people I have had fly these sims pretty much put Xplane at the front for flight characteristics. But not for scenery, or detail. The detail goes to DCS and the scenery is a toss up between FSX and DCS.

So it doesn't matter what anyone says about the sim. I relate to the original poster's issue. I feel the same way about the game. but I got use to it and now I enjoy it.

I can come up with one more comparison. I am a combat veteran. I was thought certain things about staying alive in really bad situations. Several years ago I went out and bought C.O.D. I lasted about 3 seconds every time I would spawn because I had to literally try and forget everything I ever had pounded into my skull about survival. Why?? Because Battlefield, C.O.D., and those others....are absolutely nothing like real life combat. The principle is completely different. People are not afraid of dying, bullets don't do nearly as much damage, and every loser and their brother is using an RPG, or grenade launcher like a shotgun. Yet both games claim to be as real as you can get..........Have you ever tasted your tongue out of fear? That's real.....I never felt afraid playing a video game.

 

So the bottom line here is that anyone can claim that this is the most real sim on earth....but there are plenty of other sim enthusiasts and actual pilots who beg to differ. Same with Xplane, and FSX. So argue away....your not right, nor am I, it's all in your head.

Edited December 28, 2013 by markwilliam

[Swoop73]

Just some thoughts

 

Reading this thread and several other related ones, I respectfully think many people are over thinking the whole thing. First, let me say that I find the DCS World Mustang to be the best ever done. But... That doesn't mean it's perfect. Any attempt to duplicate a real world aircraft on a desktop computer is bound to fall short somewhere. I have been flying flight sims since the TI994A days when the planes and terrain were in wire frame and control was the arrow keys. Look what we have today....and we're still bitching.

 

To those who have pointed out the need to spend serious time setting proper control travels and curves... absolutely correct. If you're not willing to put in the time to set it up, well... You will never be happy with it.

 

I only have a very few problems I couldn't fix with the control setup. One is the speed the handbook says to raise the tail at... I think it's a typo in converting from metric, maybe. Why would it say raise the tail at 100 mph when the Mustang comes off the ground at around 80? Then there's the bad swerving that goes out of control when you're up on the mains for take off or trying to wheel land it. Here, I may be saddled with a too slow computer but not sure. Getting 20-30 frames and flies beautifully in normal flight.

 

The inner gear doors come down on the ramp after shut down when you pull the T handle, which is correct, but the flaps stay up. They should drop down too as hydraulic pressure is removed from the system. Easy fix, I would think.

 

I'm well aware of the differences between a real plane and flying at one's desktop with the short sticks we use. That said, here is my wish list to put this amazing P-51 sim over the top and make it unbeatable.

 

Tweek the steering to be more controllable on take off and landing for those of us who aren't running 50 fps. Most Mustangs now days are wheel landed to keep better aileron control... These planes are close to 2 million dollars now. Yes, everybody landed 3-point in the War but they didn't have to pay for the occasional ground loop.

 

Every crash including ground loops seems to end in an explosion and fire... Common, guys... :-)

 

Accelerated stalls are close but the real P-51 has more pronounced buffet. Also, for all of you saying the Mustang had vicious stall behavior- Not really. It would snap roll in the direction the ball was off but at least in normal stalls, if the ball was centered it would break straight ahead. This sim does model recovery beautifully... just relax the back pressure and you're flying again.

 

Just a bunch of notes after flying the DCS Mustang for the past 3 weeks. Again, don't jump on me.. I love it and am going to work with darn little sleep some days.

 

By the way, I'm not saying all this as theory. I have 7.5 hours in a P-51 at Stallion 51 in Florida and the first hour was with Ed Shippley.. Ever hear of him? :-) He'd be the first to tell you you can get the tail up at 60 on take off and track the centerline with razor precision. I have done split S's from altitude, holding Crazy Horse in the stall buffet all the way through. That's an exercise they teach. Take off's and landings? Probably close to 20.

 

I'll never be able to go back... Burned through my savings... but absolutely love this sim because it comes so close to the real thing. Sure wish it didn't swerve so much on the runway though. :-)

[NineLine]

My my my....we're a defensive bunch aren't we..........

 

Sorry if I missed it Mark, but what Flight Stick are you using?

[ScottishMartialArts]

My my my....we're a defensive bunch aren't we..........

 

Like I initially posted, I like DCS. I enjoy playing it. I'm not disputing whether its a good game or not. I'm not saying its bad at all. What I am saying is that when anyone I have ever had fly this thing was a pilot, it took them no time at all to dismiss it's claims that it flies like the real deal. But you guys are so defensive about it that you are looking past 99% of the picture.

1. You do not get the sensation of G forces in any sim that's on your home computer. This makes a big difference in feel and reduces your judgement as a pilot to know exactly how steep or subtle your turning banks are. Even so...DCS is more limited than the real plane. I have flown in Cesnas that in real life seem to out turn this P-51. I have likewise been told this by a number of pilots. But who cares....I adjusted and play the game.

2. The world distance judgement is worlds different on a computer screen than in real life. So you cannot use your binary vision to establish depth or distance from a given object.

3. These planes aren't friggin real guys. Their computer likenesses. That makes a huuuuge difference.

4. Even the joystick itself is problematic. In a real P-51, you have a real stick that's attached to cables beneath the floor. The stick is over 2 feet long. Your rudder is all rigging. Theres no way on god's green earth you ar going to pull these characteristics out of a computer game. If there were a way.....they'ed be training real pilots with this stuff. But they're not. And there is a reason for that.

You can fly Xplane (they claim to be the best) and do touch and goes on a runway. It takes less than 1/2 the time for you to go around the airport in a P-51 in Xplane than it does the P-51 in DCS. Same distances, speeds, everything. yet the two are so different that you cannot even compare them. Who's right? Both claim to be.

 

Defensive bunch? You just reiterated what everyone else JUST DISCUSSED as if it hadn't even been said and you accuse others of defensiveness? Might want to actually READ the discussion before assuming everyone is butthurt.

[siipperi]

Sorry if I missed it Mark, but what Flight Stick are you using?

 

 

Yeah, what stick are you using and do you have rudder pedals? P51 needs pretty strong curves to get proper feel with short saitek/logitech sticks. The physicsl feel is always the problem with flightsims but you can definately get some kind of understanding if it flies about right.

 

Sorry, I tried to multiquote but too stupid to get it working. :doh: