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I've been fighting BVR with an F14 armed with AIM-54C and AIM-7M. I now can defeat it easily, knowing how AIM-54C behaves. BUT, MAN! Isn't AIM-54C a mighty weapon? The tacview record shows that it can be launched from practically infinity, and what's worse, its launch is undetectable until the moment its onboard radar is activated. Had I remained flying a straight route before this point, I would not be able to shake it off no matter how I manuvered. The ONLY way that I so far have found to defeat it is to fly nose down AND banked around 20 degrees from the VERY BEGINNING! In this way, when its onboard radar is activated, its energy is low enough for me to shake it off relatively easily. I found that AIM-54C is much more difficult to defeat than an AIM-120C. In the latter case, I could start manuvering only from the point at which a launch warning was given by my RWS. Had I done this with an AIM-54C, I am dead meat. I am a bit lost... Since I cannot always know if an NATO aircraft is armed with AIM-54C or its likes before hand, it seems that the safe way to go is to fly nose down and banked from the beginning WHENEVER I am facing a NATO aircraft which can POTENTIALLY be armed with this weapon. Is that so? Are their any more ways of defeating AIM-54C without the need of banking and lowering my nose from the beginning? Is there any way to detect the launch of an AIM-54C before its onboard radar is activated? I have looked in the manual, but very little is said about it there. Only its name was mentioned a few times. So, what are your suggestions? Thanks in advance!
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Chaff rejection capability varies from missile to missile. For instance, if someone shoots an R-27ER at you, you can pretty much just toss your chewing gum wrapper out the window and it'll track that instead.

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Chaff rejection capability varies from missile to missile. For instance, if someone shoots an R-27ER at you, you can pretty much just toss your chewing gum wrapper out the window and it'll track that instead.

 

LOL although it should be a sad thing for Russian aircraft pilots instead of funny...

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I have a hard time believing the Phoenix should be quite so capable against a small, maneuvering target, but I don't know enough to back it up.

 

I should clarify by saying that I was maneuvering while maintaining a lock on the F14... If I don't care about keeping the lock, maybe I could defeat AIM-54C anyway... Will try that.

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LOL although it should be a sad thing for Russian aircraft pilots instead of funny...

 

Nope, its so sad its funny, youre shooting rockets at enemies not missiles

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the origin of "fox 3": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-54_Phoenix

 

Only the US and Iran had operated the F-14. But I remember coming across a report, years ago, that Spetsnaz came in and grabbed one of the Iranian F-14's to take back home.

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An F-14 will appear closer on your RWR than an F-15, Su-27 at equal distance as it has a much more powerful radar. You could use that tip to increase your awareness on possible 54's heading your way, unless your radar gets jammed as you need to compare range on your RWR and radar. Watch out as the MiG-25/31 will also appear closer. TWES/NCTR systems would be handy here to separate.

 

In all cases, expect TWS shots every time, stay mobile and often snaking gently between glimbals or circling on station will do the job against long range TWS shots, once she gets close enough, pop up, shoot and take the upper hand.

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They were good enough to have a dogfight mode of some sort, but that doesn't mean much.

 

I have a hard time believing the Phoenix should be quite so capable against a small, maneuvering target, but I don't know enough to back it up.

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I have a hard time believing the Phoenix should be quite so capable against a small, maneuvering target, but I don't know enough to back it up.

 

 

Test shot against a maneuvering drone at 7:20. Watch the endgame.

 

Maneuverability being a product of speed, thereby volume of air over the control surfaces, an accelerating/sustaining Phoenix is no laughing matter. Further, given that a major portion of the role was to engage cruise missiles on the deck, the weapon has to naturally have maneuverability to respond in the late phase of a look-down situation. Plus, you're dealing with a 100+ lb warhead; you've got a large proximity margin to work with.

 

And the Soviets never got an F-14. While the threat was there with the Iranian Revolution (causing a number of software changes that eventually brought about the eventual update to the digital AIM-54C model), the Iranians refused to let the USSR walk off with one.

 

Hell, the gag is that they wouldn't let the Soviet advisors fly an F-5 (an aircraft they'd already gotten their hands on post-Vietnam), let alone sit in a Tomcat.

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I remember reading in this book about the F-15 how easy the AIM-54 was to avoid. When the 15 and 14 would do DCAT together, a simple turn at long range was enough to cause the launching aircraft to lose lock and the missile was unable to reacquire it. Or something of that nature. May not be modeled in the game, or I could be mistaken. I'll try and find the book and reproduce it here.

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And the Soviets never got an F-14. While the threat was there with the Iranian Revolution (causing a number of software changes that eventually brought about the eventual update to the digital AIM-54C model), the Iranians refused to let the USSR walk off with one.

 

Hell, the gag is that they wouldn't let the Soviet advisors fly an F-5 (an aircraft they'd already gotten their hands on post-Vietnam), let alone sit in a Tomcat.

 

 

Well, officially I guess it's been like that. I would hardly believe that though, in fact if the Iranians let the Soviets into their Tomcats, or give them a Phoenix to tinker with, it wouldn't had been in their best interests to publicly reveal the feat.

 

From what I read, the USA gave Tomcats/Phoenix to Iran while said country was governed by the Shah, who was one of the best friends of the Americans. After the 1979 Islamic coup, America became the worst of all enemies of Iran, along with Israel (the governing monks calling the USA "satan").

 

Yet apparently the AIM-54 was so expensive that live rounds were rarely fired in training. Also, its performance was acceptable only against large, sluggish targets (in fact it was designed to hit Soviet long range bombers before they could fire their cruise missiles at US task forces). The disappearance of the threat from soviet naval aviation really eliminated any justification for the presence of the cats and their primary weapon aboard US carriers.

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The reference you speak of is in Eagle Engaged; like any other radar missile, a notch at the opportune time defeats the pulse Doppler search algorithms and loses the lock. However, the comments in the book don't tell the full story- the problem for the F-15 is in knowing the shot has been taken, and to understand when that's available, one has to know what the rules were for the DACT setup.

 

The reason for this is because if the F-14 is in its track while scan mode, like the F-15, there's no "tell" at the time of launch for an opposed RWR to detect. Thus, the Eagle can only do this in the event of three things-

 

a. The launch is in STT (which is stated right in the F-15's 90's DACT playbook)

b. The players are on a common frequency and the launch call is heard, or

c. A TACTS/ACMI controller alerts them of the launch.

 

So can a notch beat it? Sure. Same as one can beat an AMRAAM. But only if the shooter let you know it's there. Otherwise, it's all down to endgame maneuver and your ECM.

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Well, officially I guess it's been like that. I would hardly believe that though, in fact if the Iranians let the Soviets into their Tomcats, or give them a Phoenix to tinker with, it wouldn't had been in their best interests to publicly reveal the feat.

 

That's from the Iranians themselves. Further, the Revolution had not fully completed when the conflict with Iraq began. So yes- let's send our best weapons platform to a nation we're not 100% in bed with yet when it's needed here at home, never mind the fact our spares availability has been cut off and we're dealing with potential embargo.

 

You're really going to disarm yourself even one useful airframe in the middle of a war? C'mon now.

 

The sale of the F-14 to Iran had as much, if not more to do with politics and money as it did with the apparent reliability of the nation, due to the expense of the program. Grumman was producing the F-14A at a loss based on contractual agreements with the United States Navy. Approval of the sale to Iran supplied a much needed influx of operating dollars at a time when the firm was close to going under, while maintaining the unit price for a number of subsequent years at the same contracted rate to the USN.

 

And the Phoenix was designed to hit anything airborne- it was not a "bomber-only" weapon. Part of this is based on confusion from it's replacement of the intended AAM-N-10 Eagle missile. Similar intentions, but wholly differing requirements. The need to engage cruise missiles directly was a component included in the design requirements for the AIM-54; thus, with cruise missiles being smaller than most any fighter aircraft, and with the need for maneuverability in the look-down portion of the intercept and the aforementioned dogfight mode (just over 2 mile Rmin), the performance to hit a fighter is there.

 

I'm not one to tout the IRIAF's claims as reliable, not by a long shot- but even giving them credit for 10% of what they state they did against Iraq with the weapon nets seven kills, all against fighters.

Edited by lunaticfringe
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Wow, just reading up on the phoenix... 100 mile max range, 80,000ft cruise at Mach 5. That's one seriously bad ass missile. And the F-14 could track 24 targets at the same time, assign 6 priority targets and launch a full load of missiles almost simultaneously.

 

Add a 135lb HE warhead to the mix (compared with 40lb for the AIM-120C) and it's hardly surprising that when other aircraft saw them on the RWR they used to just turn around and run away.

Edited by howie87
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