DCS: P-47D-30 Discussion

[DSR_T-800]

Yes Broman is one hell of a P-47 pilot. Unfortunately as stated above the DCS community is all about turn and burn low altitude dog fighting. It would be great to see a P-47 leave the K-4 and D-9 in the dust at 30,000ft.

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

All depends on where you fight. I don't go anywhere below 4500m in my k4 nor do I try anything above 6000m in the dora. If a p47 pilot decides to dance down low then that's his death. Same applies to the mk9 spit. If he tries to engage anything above 19k ft then he'll be signing his own death certificate. All these people that turn and burn down low in dcs have no concept of basic ACM and why you see them crash or die to guns

 

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[Legioneod]

I think they'll have a good balance once Jug and Ai B-17 is out.

 

P-47 will be king up top

P-51 (with proper settings) can handle itslef at mid-high alt.

Spit can stay down low and force enemy's to go mid-high alt or fight low.

[Kev2go]

I think they'll have a good balance once Jug and Ai B-17 is out.

 

P-47 will be king up top

P-51 (with proper settings) can handle itslef at mid-high alt.

Spit can stay down low and force enemy's to go mid-high alt or fight low.

 

and P47 will be the best mud move/ cas platform, due to its radial engine, airframe ruggedness, and ability to strap on loads of bombs.

[Kev2go]

All depends on where you fight. I don't go anywhere below 4500m in my k4 nor do I try anything above 6000m in the dora. If a p47 pilot decides to dance down low then that's his death. Same applies to the mk9 spit. If he tries to engage anything above 19k ft then he'll be signing his own death certificate. All these people that turn and burn down low in dcs have no concept of basic ACM and why you see them crash or die to guns

 

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but then would that just simply mean air combat wouldnt occur? 109 or dora pilot says, oj look a p51 ( or p47) above 6000m i wont engage, P47 pilot goes, "i wont engage 109/ 190 below that altitude" of fear of being dragged down too low? no one ends up fighting each other. someone has to make the first move.

 

but i guess maybe thats how a spitfire will help balance things out, the P51 and p47s will force doras and 109s to fly lower were a spitfire will be a threat to them. or force them up higher were p51 and p47s will be able to fight them.

 

Then again that isnt taking into consideration ambushes. You never know you could still be ambushed by a enemy pilot even in a altitude where you they are used to having have the advantage 7 not expecting to see an enemy there, but die anyways to a surprise kill. perhaps the Germans side will eventually be Augmented by A ME262, which will be to do just that.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Kev2go

[Tomsk]

but then would that just simply mean air combat wouldnt occur? 109 or dora pilot says, oj look a p51 ( or p47) above 6000m i wont engage, P47 pilot goes, "i wont engage 109/ 190 below that altitude" of fear of being dragged down too low? no one ends up fighting each other. someone has to make the first move.

 

Why would the P-47/P-51 not engage if they have a large energy advantage over the 109/Dora? In that situation the P-47/P-51 can boom and zoom the 109/Dora with virtually no risk to themselves (if done properly). This is what the P-47 and P-51 (and the Dora) were made for: booming and zooming a lower energy opponent. They can also disengage at any time, unlike the lower energy 109/Dora who cannot disengage, even if they hold a top-speed advantage.

 

It really doesn't matter if your plane would be out-performed at a given altitude if you hold a large energy advantage over your opponent. No sustained climb rate can match a zoom climb, and no top-speed advantage can match the speed gained in a dive. Energy is king.

[MAD-MM]

The Thunderbolt clear becomes one of WW2 Modules I looking forward, there was not much successful Turbo Charged Fighter Designs in WW 2.

Still the limited Factor of Boom and Zoom is sadly spotting doesn't work very well in DCS, but was improved with last patch hope Normandy still future improve this.

P-51 and P-47 as mentioned was very successful in BZ when the enemy try to follow the zoom climb your wingman goes in with latterly no change for the enemy to counter.

K4 have superior altitude Performance to the Dora, that change only with Jumo 213 E/F Engines.

K4 have his top Speed Peak at 24000 FT (7,3 KM) that's real close to the P-51 wouldn't underestimate it.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Is this our expected D30 model?

 

 

S!

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

That's the thing. Most of it depends on the initial position of the aircraft. It is a 3d space after all so thing might not go as you plan it. Just generally you'd want to be in you're aircrafts element but you could be placed in a situation where you are at a disadvantage.

 

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[Kev2go]

Why would the P-47/P-51 not engage if they have a large energy advantage over the 109/Dora? In that situation the P-47/P-51 can boom and zoom the 109/Dora with virtually no risk to themselves (if done properly). This is what the P-47 and P-51 (and the Dora) were made for: booming and zooming a lower energy opponent. They can also disengage at any time, unlike the lower energy 109/Dora who cannot disengage, even if they hold a top-speed advantage.

 

It really doesn't matter if your plane would be out-performed at a given altitude if you hold a large energy advantage over your opponent. No sustained climb rate can match a zoom climb, and no top-speed advantage can match the speed gained in a dive. Energy is king.

 

 

yes but a good pilot can simply dodge those attacks. 109s and doras have powerfull enough of a engine to regain lost energy faster than a stang anways. Sooner or later the bolt or stang pilot will get more agressive and make mistakes engaging axis planes in a regimen where 109s and doras will be able to enage them on a equal or advantageous footing. IF both pilots are realllly good, and know stregths and weaknesses of both aircraft, neither will shoot each other down, and end up both goign back to base to rearm or refuel. technically p47 & p51they were designed as escort fighters first and foremost, and initially for the RAF. BNZ tactics are applied only because the aircraft's resulting flight characteristics.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Kev2go

[Kev2go]

The Thunderbolt clear becomes one of WW2 Modules I looking forward, there was not much successful Turbo Charged Fighter Designs in WW 2.

Still the limited Factor of Boom and Zoom is sadly spotting doesn't work very well in DCS, but was improved with last patch hope Normandy still future improve this.

P-51 and P-47 as mentioned was very successful in BZ when the enemy try to follow the zoom climb your wingman goes in with latterly no change for the enemy to counter.

K4 have superior altitude Performance to the Dora, that change only with Jumo 213 E/F Engines.

K4 have his top Speed Peak at 24000 FT (7,3 KM) that's real close to the P-51 wouldn't underestimate it.

 

yea and whilst dora technically has worse altitude performance thant the K4 i find that the Dora has better acceleration and energy retention, and controls surfaces don't lock up as fast as the 109 in dives. So not even the Dora should be underestimated.

 

at the same time im interested to see how allied pilots will deal with Me262s. as long as you maintain energy, and watch your speed, the me262 will be un catch-able by any current pistons. think YP80, or Metor mk3's will be needed as a counter to it.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Kev2go

[Tomsk]

yes but a good pilot can simply dodge those attacks. 109s and doras have powerfull enough of a engine to regain lost energy faster than a stang anways.

 

Absolutely, it all comes down to pilot skill at the end of the day. Each of the planes have their own strengths and weaknesses, and so it usually ends up coming down to who can best exploit their strengths and expose their opponent's weaknesses.

 

That said I'm a big fan of the BnZ style, it allows a good opportunity for attacking the enemy with little risk to oneself. Working in a pair can be especially effective, as soon as your opponent dodges one attack the next plane is already diving in looking for the shot. Also whilst it's true that a 109 can even out the energy situation if well flown, if the P-51 pilot feels like they've lost the advantage they can simply dive away. A 109 won't usually catch a co-E P-51 in a shallow dive, the P-51 simply dives better. Also as long the P-51 has altitude he can force the fight into a high-speed contest, something the 109 is not good at.

 

yea and whilst dora technically has worse altitude performance thant the K4 i find that the Dora has better acceleration and energy retention, and controls surfaces don't lock up as fast as the 109 in dives. So not even the Dora should be underestimated.

 

Definitely not, I'm a big fan of the Dora. Great high speed handling, dives very well, awesome weaponry, terrifying roll rate, and currently the fastest plane (at WEP) on the deck. Definitely not to be underestimated!

 

at the same time im interested to see how allied pilots will deal with Me262s. as long as you maintain energy, and watch your speed, the me262 will be un catch-able by any current pistons. think YP80, or Metor mk3's will be needed as a counter to it.

 

Honestly I think a well flown Me262 should be more or less untouchable, it's just simply too fast for most planes to catch. Even diving from a substantial altitude advantage most piston planes would have a hard time getting into a firing position. Which is why I expect most servers won't allow it to be used much, it would just be too dominant.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Tomsk

[Brigg]

Honestly I think a well flown Me262 should be more or less untouchable, it's just simply too fast for most planes to catch. Even diving from a substantial altitude advantage most piston planes would have a hard time getting into a firing position. Which is why I expect most servers won't allow it to be used much, it would just be too dominant.

 

this +1

[Kev2go]

Honestly I think a well flown Me262 should be more or less untouchable, it's just simply too fast for most planes to catch. Even diving from a substantial altitude advantage most piston planes would have a hard time getting into a firing position. Which is why I expect most servers won't allow it to be used much, it would just be too dominant.

 

this +1

 

yea exatly, but maybe it would work if allies get ww2 jet to counter the me262.

 

The metoer mk3 is down Veos planned development list. Now if if we could just get a YP-80, for usa. Or multiple versions of the Shooting Star from a developer so we also have the F-80C for korean theater.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Kev2go

[gavagai]

Absolutely, it all comes down to pilot skill at the end of the day. Each of the planes have their own strengths and weaknesses, and so it usually ends up coming down to who can best exploit their strengths and expose their opponent's weaknesses.

 

"It's the pilot, not the plane" is the favorite saying of the guy in the better plane.

 

Double superiority is a condition for which a fighter pilot would gladly

trade several semi-essential parts of his anatomy. A double-superior

fighter has the speed and acceleration to force an opponent to fight, and the

maneuverability to win the fight.

 

The 109K is arguably doubly superior to the P-51, and I suspect it will be so decisively compared to the P-47 below 25,000ft.:ermm:

[Tomsk]

"It's the pilot, not the plane" is the favorite saying of the guy in the better plane.

 

Well I'm mostly a P-51 pilot and I still think skill is the deciding factor. I also don't think the 109 is superior ...

 

The 109K is arguably doubly superior to the P-51, and I suspect it will be so decisively compared to the P-47 below 25,000ft.:ermm:

 

The 109 K4 is a formidable plane. It is slightly faster than a P-51 when they are both at WEP, although not on military power, the P-51 is faster there. It climbs better, and it turns a bit better at slow speeds.

 

However, the P-51 dives better, is much more maneuverable at high speeds and rolls a bit better. IMO that's a nice collection of traits to have, you can build a great game plan with that collection of traits. Climb to a reasonable altitude, if you meet a lower 109 then BnZ them, the P-51 is really good at that. Join with a friend of two to make that be a really bad day for the 109 below you.

 

If you meet a co-E or slightly higher energy 109 then you can often sucker them into blowing a lot of their energy in the merge. That works most of the time. Otherwise treat as below ...

 

If you meet a higher 109 you have some choices. First if it all goes wrong you can dive for the deck and run away, a 109 will not catch a P-51 in a dive. Also the P-51 holds excess speed much better than 109, even if the 109 is in theory a few mph faster in the long run the P-51 will be long gone by the time it matters. Secondly if they are foolish enough to follow you into a 400mph+ dive then they have made a big mistake. The P-51 handles beautifully at 400mph ... the 109 really does not. My personal favourite is a rolling scissors, the 109 will have huge overshoot problems because it is not at all maneuverable at those kinds of speeds. Use the roll rate advantage to avoid any shot opportunities the 109 might have, and use the turn advantage (at high speeds) to force an overshoot ... then nail them. If they don't follow you into your dive then wave them bye-bye ... they'll not catch you.

 

The P-47 is a bit slower at low altitudes, but is king-of-the-hill above 25,000ft ... nothing can catch it up there. It also dives and zooms like a dream, controls wonderfully at high speeds, and has a really nice weapons package with tons of ammo. It is a fantastic plane for BnZ, and is an absolute monster at high-altitude where it has the traits to dominate since it is faster, out-climbs, out-dives and out-maneuvers virtually everything at all speeds. A P-47 cruising at around 30,000ft can BnZ (somewhat) lower enemies with impunity as it is almost untouchable up there.

 

So yes, the 109 K4 is much better dogfighter than a P-51 or P-47 .. but dogfighting is not the only way to fight.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Tomsk

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

^^+1 P-51 has many advantages over the 109. you described it bang on.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

So well explained mate :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:.

 

May be one day some 109 fanboys understand that kind of things, but today is not the day :lol:.

 

 

I already felt like having a go on DCS level P-47, but your speech made me remember why and now I what it eagerly :megalol:.

 

 

S!

[otto]

So yes, the 109 K4 is much better dogfighter than a P-51 or P-47 .. but dogfighting is not the only way to fight.

 

I'm not saying it's not a good dogfigher or that some of it's strong points aren't awesome but some of the 109's charateristics aren't that impressive.

In a flat scissors the controls are delayed and i can't really use twitch reflexes to change direction fast.I'm not saying the real plane wasn't like that .But it's like trying to dribble someone with a football with mud up to your ankles.

And the pilot blacks out at 6,5 G or someting .I can't surprize my opponent with any king of fast maneuvering because i'm blocked between the control problem and the G blackout. On top of that if you're trying to fly at the egde of blacking out the control delay might send you into darkness.I don't think it's a cake walk.

 

 

PS: I fly the plane because it looks cool.That's also true for the other planes i fly.

 

Also in a p47 i can shoot a 109 down or damage it at 3 times the range that a 109 can damage me.

Edited November 21, 2016 by otto

[otto]

So yes, the 109 K4 is much better dogfighter than a P-51 or P-47 .. but dogfighting is not the only way to fight.

 

I'm not saying it's not a good dogfigher but some of the 109's charateristics aren't that impressive.

In a flat scissors the controls are delayed and i can't really use twitch reflexes to change direction fast.I'm not saying the real plane wasn't like that .But it's like trying to dribble someone with a football with mud up to your ankles.

And the pilot blacks out at 6,5 G or someting .I can't surprize my opponent with any king of fast maneuvering because i'm blocked between the control problem and the G.

 

PS: I fly the plane because it looks cool.That's also true for the other planes i fly.

[gavagai]

Double superior is a term of art. It is not an overall appraisal of the aircraft's abilities.

 

Everything you say about the better high speed maneuvering of the P-51D is true, of course.

 

For now the 109K K/D is about 4x better than the P51 in multiplayer. Even taking into account the foibles of internet airquake and the misuse of the P51, that is an impressive spread.

 

We've all shot down 109s with the P51, but when your opponent isn't a sucker you are in for a lot of trouble.

Edited November 22, 2016 by gavagai

[Tomsk]

Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion. But personally I like what the P-51 (and P-47) offer. As long as I have a bit of altitude under me, I can disengage from a 109 at will. If I don't like the fight, I just leave. The 109 has no such luxury, if I hold an energy advantage over him then I decide the fight. If he takes damage he has to stay and fight, if he's low on fuel he has to stay and fight, if my friends turn up to turn this into a many-vs-one he has to stay and fight.

 

For me the ability to choose when I want to fight and when I don't is the ultimate advantage. It was the ultimate advantage in real life too, but it's not much appreciated in simulators where people want to fight even at a huge disadvantage.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Tomsk

[Kev2go]

So well explained mate :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:.

 

May be one day some 109 fanboys understand that kind of things, but today is not the day :lol:.

 

 

 

 

S!

 

 

:music_whistling:

 

Edited November 24, 2016 by Kev2go

[Ala13_ManOWar]

:music_whistling:

 

What do you mean? Yes, I know that interview. Anyway, he's a pilot and still speaking by ear about models he hasn't possibly flown because they don't exist any more (109F), and models he hasn't flown at all (Spit V). You don't need to be a pilot to speak by ear “because I read somewhere”, and this forums are the proof of that :lol:.

 

Anyway, can you explain me how is that related to energy management, and combat tactics? Oh wait, you just want to turn like the video says, so still my point :smilewink:.

 

 

S!

[Rangi]

It's all a moot point if ED can't get the proper information about flight characteristics, anyone got some good news or leads?