[REPORTED] Fw 190 Cockpit Bar! (answer Post #173)

[NineLine]

Now its the bars on the sides as well? Hmmm I'd like to see pictures of this happening on the real thing...

[gavagai]

It's the bar and the canopy frame bars on each side. The former shouldn't obstruct the gun sight and the latter should not appear as thick as it would otherwise do. I guess the impact of making it look right on the inside is that the 3D exterior model won't look fully right. Unless refraction is actually modelled it's one or the other really and seeing as we spend most of our time in the cockpit would seem to make sense to simulate refraction.

 

You're assuming that the cockpit 3d model and the external 3d model are the same. So far as I know they are not.

[Foul Ole Ron]

From the screenshots I've seen of the DCS 190 I don't think the canopy frame bars are going to be an issue. In another sim that has the 190 they're a massive hindrance to visibility and look way thicker than they would if refraction was taken into account.

[gavagai]

cockpit images:

 

 

 

 

 

 

an early build of the DCS 190 cockpit, but which shows its feautres better than the screenshots we've seen.

 

 

and the newer pic

 

 

I think the DCS cockpit looks way better than some of the others I've seen.

[DB 605]

You're assuming that the cockpit 3d model and the external 3d model are the same. So far as I know they are not.

 

I hope that isn't the case, but in current DCS external 3d model they are too thin indeed. But in some recently released shot it seems they are fixed, we'll see soon.

 

Or am i only one who thinks there is difference?:

 

Old:

 

 

 

New:

 

 

 

[gavagai]

Ok, here is a video that really shows how small the horizontal bar appears through the armored glass...still thinner than in DCS, if it is visible at all:

 

 

;)

Edited July 29, 2014 by gavagai

[NineLine]

I think the angles of most of those camera shots are quite a bit lower than the pilots view though... lower you go the less thick that bar will look as well... not saying the refraction thing is wrong.. just that this vid doesnt show it great...

[gavagai]

It does show it well. Here is a screenshot:

 

 

The horizontal bar is inconspicuous.:book:

[USARStarkey]

I can see the bar in the second image

 

and in the video. The 3d model in game looks fine.

[NineLine]

It does show it well. Here is a screenshot:

 

 

The horizontal bar is inconspicuous.:book:

 

But that is not where the pilots head would be... unless he was taking a nap against the cockpit ;)

[Narushima]

The solution would be extremely simple. Calculate by how much refraction would change the angle of light and just adjust the bar accordingly. No other adjustments would be necessary and the cockpit would actually look more realistic.

 

No need to implement refraction this way, and no need to change the exterior model (from what I know no sim uses cockpit models for exterior).

[gavagai]

SithSpawn,

 

Here is one more, and here is the video I grabbed it from.

 

 

 

The evidence for the bar not being so conspicuous from the pilot's perspective is incontrovertible. It is what it is and that is that.:smilewink:

Edited July 29, 2014 by gavagai

[NineLine]

Well the camera is on top of his head... but closer, I have seen this vid... the A, is just down the road from me :) The camera angle isnt great because you see so much nose... it would be good for a NBA player that pilots the 190 :)

 

I have a similar angle in my collection of screen shots, I dont think the bar will be a large issue here in DCS.

[marluk]

I'm not game developer but I can't believe that this light refraction problem is such a big deal these days. Refraction should be one of the simpler effects. Essentially it is just shifting pixels that depends of thickness and refractive coefficient of the materials. This should be piece of cake for today's graphics engines and hardware.

 

But I have to admit this DCS solution is actually the better one. 1C totally ignored thickness of the armored glass so armored window of the Fw 190 in BOS looks like dormer window. Hope that they will fix it before final release. At least like ED does.

[MA_Goblin]

Right, I said to myself let it go but I'll try to explain one more time why the refraction is important. The glass pane is 58mm thick, it's slanted towards

the pilot and that means that the light (image) coming from over the cowling will bend downwards making the bar disappear. See images attached.

Notice the first image the extreme result of refraction making the "bar" disappear and the cowling jump down to the bottom inside the glass. Also note that the side window are 30mm thick on the real thing! Also note that the side frame also looks significantly smaller.

 

Edited July 29, 2014 by hakjar

[Krupi]

 

If that pick does not highlight the issue nothing ever will! Great find that shows the issue perfectly.

[Krupi]

That said... lets wait and see what we get, it very much looks like ED are still working on the Dora cockpit and it has looked a lot better in the recent images so I am hopeful this might already have been taken into account :)

[gavagai]

 

Well the camera is on top of his head... .

 

Yes, but in the image I posted the camera is at the level where his eyes would be to view through the gunsight.:smartass:

 

Edited July 29, 2014 by gavagai

[NineLine]

If that pick does not highlight the issue nothing ever will! Great find that shows the issue perfectly.

 

 

Yeah, but is it exaggerated because you are looking at a different angle through the side window now?

 

That said, I will ask about refraction mapping in 3D studio...

[USARStarkey]

SithSpawn,

 

Here is one more, and here is the video I grabbed it from.

 

 

 

The evidence for the bar not being so conspicuous from the pilot's perspective is incontrovertible. It is what it is and that is that.:smilewink:

 

Except, the bars appearance in your images and the ones posted by the 3d modeler and others appear to be basically the same.

[IvanK]

The large image shown by Hakar was taken by me of the Fw190A8 that used to hang from the roof Imperial war museum London. Here are a couple more from the same series of images:

 

 

Edited July 29, 2014 by IvanK

[Yo-Yo]

Oh, show me the way to the next cockpit bar...

 

I wonder, why nobody noticed that the slanted thick glass shifts not only the bar down but the whole picture including engine cowl and all world outside? So, I want to say that the visible field including the bar obstacle will be the same with or without refraction. The only effect is equivalent of the pilot head (eyes) shitted a little bit higher.

If we have no refraction effect in the 3D engine (I do not know exactly) the right way to make a good solution is to shift the camera position together with the gunsight.

 

And, by the way, everybody can estimate this required shift using the simple equation:

 

Shift = d*sin(a)*(1-cos(a)/sqrt(n^2 - sin(a)^2)), where n is refraction coeff for glass, a - angle of incidence, d- glass thickness

 

so, if n=1.7 (typical), d =58mm and a=60 deg the shift is about 30 mm.

 

 

UPD: This shifting is exactly the same 777 made for their 190A

Edited July 30, 2014 by Yo-Yo

[MA_Goblin]

Yes you can shift the view but then the bottom panel with instruments will not be fully visible to the pilot.

[ARM505]

Oh, show me the way to the next cockpit bar...

 

Oh, don't ask why

Oh, don't ask why

 

:D

 

Ah, good to see the traditional FW190 cockpit bar discussion progressing here too (was just at the IL2:BOS forums :) )

 

It's not just the bar, it's the perceived depth of the side bars surrounding the thick front windscreen. Just so we're all clear on what's been happening there. The first thing I saw when I stepped into the BOS 190 was 'Gosh, look at those massive bars obscuring my view to the sides of the windscreen!' Thick glass makes those (as well as the lower bar) look thinner when looking through the windscreen, so it doesn't seem like you're staring out through a metal valley :D :D

Edited July 30, 2014 by ARM505

[marluk]

Oh, show me the way to the next cockpit bar...

 

I wonder, why nobody noticed that the slanted thick glass shifts not only the bar down but the whole picture including engine cowl and all world outside? So, I want to say that the visible field including the bar obstacle will be the same with or without refraction. The only effect is equivalent of the pilot head (eyes) shitted a little bit higher.

If we have no refraction effect in the 3D engine (I do not know exactly) the right way to make a good solution is to shift the camera position together with the gunsight.

 

And, by the way, everybody can estimate this required shift using the simple equation:

 

Shift = d*sin(a)*(1-cos(a)/sqrt(n^2 - sin(a)^2)), where n is refraction coeff for glass, a - angle of incidence, d- glass thickness

 

so, if n=1.7 (typical), d =58mm and a=60 deg the shift is about 30 mm.

 

 

UPD: This shifting is exactly the same 777 made for their 190A

 

Of course. Actually i thought that everybody noticed that.

 

Whole picture is shifted down. So, you should get better forward visibility because all airplane parts are shifted down for some offset. It is similar like periscope. Moreover, top bar is not visible from the pilot view because of the angle of the glass, so you will see more of the sky.

Of course the bar will have kind of progressive refraction but the furthest border should have the same refraction as the other things in front of glass so it shouldn't affect forward visibility at all, regardless that closer bar parts are less refracted.