Jump to content

[REPORTED] Fw 190 Cockpit Bar! (answer Post #173)


Krupi
 Share

Recommended Posts

Regarding the picture from the video and what's shown there it

has never been up for debate. What has been up for debate was

the "bar" that the lower fram/mounting of the armoured glass has.

In all earlier models in the "other" games that "bar" was so high

it was an obstacle in the Revi which clearly is not the case.

 

That the sunscreen and the mounting of the revi glass itself is

somewhat blocking the line of sight is perfectly fine by me so

I'm happy.

 

Regarding my drawings:

Could be, I don't know. So very hard to know such things.

The only way is to verify by flugwerk in Germany that has

all originals and the rights to them but I have got no answer

from them as of today.

 

I've even asked to buy a copy of that part but has no answer yet.

 

However this is the marking of them and if it's a forgery it's good

enough to foll me any ways. If it it a forgery I'd be very happy to

be told so since that is kind of important to know for me to avoid

using it as reference. And to not use my sources for drawings any more.

 

Best regards.

 

Skaumlrmklipp_zpsd6c46ddd.jpg


Edited by hakjar

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

_____________Semper paratus, In hoc signo vinces________________

 

PC: Intel i7-8700K (4.9 GHz), Aorus Ultra Gaming Z370 MB, Aorus GTX 1080Ti (1.7 GHz/1.1 GHz), 32 GB DDR3 (3,2 GHz), Samsung EVO 860 M.2 500 GB SSD + Samsung 960 M.2 250 GB SSD Gaming: TM HOTAS WH, Crosswind pedals, HP Reverb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Skaumlrmklipp_zpsd6c46ddd.jpg

 

Why am I supposed inauthenticity of your drawing.

The fact is that at one time, I made ​​inquiries about the origin of packets of drawings in color form (like your) and was mentioned authoritatively that this is actually the modern drawings. But who and why there would be stamped it as original FokkeWulf's factory, is unknown. And of course, once they are not original, it is necessary to use them with great caution.

 

Well any way, here my drw, Ta-152, original FW factory too, even date 1943 and drw number identical, but different at important areas. FW magic?

 

0_d3cad_e36cea5e_XXL.jpg


Edited by ЛИневич
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't mean it in that fashion, English is not my native language so

sometimes it's perceived in the wrong way when I write something.

 

I'm just an engineer and am interested in WWII flying technology and

collect things about it and was simply interested to know if the

marking was a know forgery.

 

I know from my own work as a navy engineer that different revisions

of drawings sometimes comes out and are stamped with the same date

and time even though there are revisional differences.

 

What strikes me is that my drawing shows the glare shield and padding

but yours only show the Revi mounting bracket.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

_____________Semper paratus, In hoc signo vinces________________

 

PC: Intel i7-8700K (4.9 GHz), Aorus Ultra Gaming Z370 MB, Aorus GTX 1080Ti (1.7 GHz/1.1 GHz), 32 GB DDR3 (3,2 GHz), Samsung EVO 860 M.2 500 GB SSD + Samsung 960 M.2 250 GB SSD Gaming: TM HOTAS WH, Crosswind pedals, HP Reverb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The bullet-proof glass windshield is fitted with a gasoline spray which can be turned on by a small control on the lower instrument panel. This spray washes away oil that may be deposited on the windshield from the engine.
jttf.jpg

 

6uv0.jpg

 

7vwo.jpg

http://www.dargies.de/Modellbau/BilderFW190/fw190.html

 

3acy.jpg

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/10/detail_fw190a8_01.htm

 

bwxz.jpg

 

m2pv.jpg

 

jq7b.jpg


Edited by Namenlos Ein

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure what the last set of pictures is meant to signify but picture 3 illustrates very well the pilots eye line which seems to agree with the factory diagram very much, the eye line is just above the coaming and in picture 3 a rough perspective shows the structure around the armour glass sitting well above that line, this topic will never be resolved until someone who one day has the ability to climb into a cockpit of a 190 and keeps in mind this very issue takes a proper set of pictures from this perspective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure what the last set of pictures is meant to signify but picture 3 illustrates very well the pilots eye line which seems to agree with the factory diagram very much, the eye line is just above the coaming and in picture 3 a rough perspective shows the structure around the armour glass sitting well above that line, this topic will never be resolved until someone who one day has the ability to climb into a cockpit of a 190 and keeps in mind this very issue takes a proper set of pictures from this perspective.

 

 

not really without the parachute :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok guys I found a video that should answer this question once and for all.

 

 

NO BAR!

The front window is clearly sitting flush with the front dash and no bar can be seen at all (ok well you can see the bar, but it is due to the camera angle looking down on the sight, but it's pretty obvious that you will not see that from the eye's point of view).

 

Edit again:

 

Well shit, after watching this more closely again, there are a few parts where the pilot ducks down and the camera IS lined up with the sight, and you can indeed see the bar blocking the view through it. Very disappointing. :mad:


Edited by Kraut
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok guys I found a video that should answer this question once and for all.

 

 

NO BAR!

The front window is clearly sitting flush with the front dash and no bar can be seen at all (ok well you can see the bar, but it is due to the camera angle looking down on the sight, but it's pretty obvious that you will not see that from the eye's point of view).

 

Edit again:

 

Well shit, after watching this more closely again, there are a few parts where the pilot ducks down and the camera IS lined up with the sight, and you can indeed see the bar blocking the view through it. Very disappointing. :mad:

 

 

Yup the bar is there, the person doing the model provided more than enough proof... I think this issue is done no matter how many times the grave is dug up ;)

SigDCSNew.png
Forum RulesMy YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**

1146563203_makefg(6).png.82dab0a01be3a361522f3fff75916ba4.png  80141746_makefg(1).png.6fa028f2fe35222644e87c786da1fabb.png  28661714_makefg(2).png.b3816386a8f83b0cceab6cb43ae2477e.png  389390805_makefg(3).png.bca83a238dd2aaf235ea3ce2873b55bc.png  216757889_makefg(4).png.35cb826069cdae5c1a164a94deaff377.png  1359338181_makefg(5).png.e6135dea01fa097e5d841ee5fb3c2dc5.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And it's still not a bar that "block" the view through the Revi but the Reticle Dimmer that is "darkening" the bottom part. The small joint of the armoured windshield and frame is nothing like the old "bar" that was high enough to block the Revi!

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

_____________Semper paratus, In hoc signo vinces________________

 

PC: Intel i7-8700K (4.9 GHz), Aorus Ultra Gaming Z370 MB, Aorus GTX 1080Ti (1.7 GHz/1.1 GHz), 32 GB DDR3 (3,2 GHz), Samsung EVO 860 M.2 500 GB SSD + Samsung 960 M.2 250 GB SSD Gaming: TM HOTAS WH, Crosswind pedals, HP Reverb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And on the other side of that dimmer is the sealing lip at the bottom of the armour glass which does clip the sight aperture.

 

So release the plane with a mod that removes the screen seal as long as all the Luftwobble pilots fly with wet underkrackers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yup the bar is there, the person doing the model provided more than enough proof... I think this issue is done no matter how many times the grave is dug up ;)

 

Frankly I'm amazed this is still going, I keep scratching my head when I see it pop up as the latest commented thread, thought the argument was settled awhile back. I guess this dead horse is going to get whacked forever no matter what.

"Hurled headlong flaming from the ethereal sky; With hideous ruin and combustion down;

To bottomless perdition, there to dwell; In adamantine chains and penal fire"

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

i5 @3.7GHz (OC to 4.1), 16GB DDR3, Nvidia GTX 970 4GB, TrackIR 5 & TrackClip Pro, TM Warthog HOTAS, VKB T-Rudder Mk.IV, Razer Blackshark Headset, Obutto Ozone

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frankly I'm amazed this is still going, I keep scratching my head when I see it pop up as the latest commented thread, thought the argument was settled awhile back. I guess this dead horse is going to get whacked forever no matter what.

 

Yeah, well most see the topic title and dont read what has been written, but for maybe the last few posts. Its all good though... although maybe I should add the answer from the modeller into my sig :)

SigDCSNew.png
Forum RulesMy YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**

1146563203_makefg(6).png.82dab0a01be3a361522f3fff75916ba4.png  80141746_makefg(1).png.6fa028f2fe35222644e87c786da1fabb.png  28661714_makefg(2).png.b3816386a8f83b0cceab6cb43ae2477e.png  389390805_makefg(3).png.bca83a238dd2aaf235ea3ce2873b55bc.png  216757889_makefg(4).png.35cb826069cdae5c1a164a94deaff377.png  1359338181_makefg(5).png.e6135dea01fa097e5d841ee5fb3c2dc5.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find the thread handy for tracking rivet counters. :P

ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bar and fridge for drinks? Must be special addon for Dora for $7.7.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anybody remember Secret Recipies of the Luftwaffe? :D

 

The ground crew:

 

118iwyr.jpg

"Hurled headlong flaming from the ethereal sky; With hideous ruin and combustion down;

To bottomless perdition, there to dwell; In adamantine chains and penal fire"

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

i5 @3.7GHz (OC to 4.1), 16GB DDR3, Nvidia GTX 970 4GB, TrackIR 5 & TrackClip Pro, TM Warthog HOTAS, VKB T-Rudder Mk.IV, Razer Blackshark Headset, Obutto Ozone

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Late to the party, but posting in a legendary thread anyway.

 

Models made from factory drawings are, by virtue of the work process, accurate 3D representations of the original objects. So if the artist who recreated the FW-190 cockpit was a professional, it's pretty likely that the model is accurate representation of that particular cockpit that the drawings were made of.

 

There are, however, things that can change how the cockpit would be perceived in real life vs. in a game.

 

First thing that comes to mind is, like the cockpit model's designer said (quoted earlier in the thread), that when you render a 3D model to a 2D surface, you are doing a projection, and projections don't always necessarily fully correspond to what reality looks like. You could have an orthographic projection (like technical drawings), perspective projection (which is usually what is used in games since it's quite cheap computationally), stereographic projection or equal-area projection or whatever fancy you want to do. The point is, these things rarely match 1:1 with what human visual perception would produce in a real thing.

 

Secondly, again like has been pointed out in the thread, there are actual physical effects which are rarely modeled, but would significantly affect the visibility ahead and over the nose. Refraction, specifically. I feel people have been looking for a "clear shot" right from the view point behind the gunsight to get the "smoking gun" for the bar's existence that they've largely ignored the best picture to illustrate the significance of the refractive effect of the windscreen.

 

Here it is:

 

tenm.jpg

 

Why is this a relevant image? Well, despite being outside the cockpit, the camera is still pretty much in the same plane (elevation) as the pilot's head would be. You can see through the windscreen, you can see the elevation of the gunsight in the cockpit, and most importantly you see past the windscreen as well.

 

To gauge the effect of the refraction, you only need to follow the upper edge of this aircraft's engine cowling all the way to the front left corner of the windscreen. Do you see it yet?

 

You don't. And that's the point. You don't see the engine cowling when you look through the windscreen - and that's because the light you see coming from the "lowest" point on the windscreen actually entered the windscreen high enough that it was not blocked by the cowling.

 

The same effect has already been illustrated here wonderfully by some empirical experiments, so I'll just try to make an illustration of what's happening here.

 

87tq.png

 

Animated version of the effect at different angles of incidence:

 

lmv.gif

 

 

So, what can we make of this? It seems pretty clear to me that the 3D models of FW-190 cockpits are correct - the location of the outer edge of cockpit glass is probably exactly where it's supposed to be (notwithstanding possible design changes that may cause variations between specific types of aircraft).

 

It also seems obvious that the perspective and refractive issues are probably the main culprits to why the "bar" seems to be high enough to partially obscure the Revi viewport's lower portion.

 

The ideal fix would be to implement a refraction shader on the canopy glass; this would have the advantage of working from all angles of view and making the glass look like glass.

 

The not-so-ideal fix would be to alter the geometry of the cockpit model so that it would appear to pilot's eye position approximately how the pilot would have seen it. In other words, having the edge of the glass slightly lower so it doesn't obscure quite so much of the useable view of the gunsight. This can, however, be a bit of a problem because if you start making changes to 3D model based on making it look "right" from one angle, you risk making it look odd from some other angles. If it's just the cockpit mesh being modified, though, there's not that much of a risk of that issue.

 

Simplest "fix" would be to shift the gunsight and pilot slightly up... :P

 

...and the easiest thing to do is for us virtual pilots to just adapt to it and create firing solutions that aren't hampered by this "bar". It really isn't that big of a deal either way - we're talking about apparent location difference on the order of centimetres... if you're really pulling lead on something, a few more degrees of visibility on your gunsight's lower edge won't help - but you'll still be able to set up sideways deflection shots where the target travels horizontally through the gunsight, and you can track it all the way from your side windows. I reckon that's more or less the way the actual FW-190 pilots did deflection shooting because the nose gets in the way irrespective of the "bar" blocking gunsight or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...and the easiest thing to do is for us virtual pilots to just adapt to it and create firing solutions that aren't hampered by this "bar". It really isn't that big of a deal either way - we're talking about apparent location difference on the order of centimetres... if you're really pulling lead on something, a few more degrees of visibility on your gunsight's lower edge won't help - but you'll still be able to set up sideways deflection shots where the target travels horizontally through the gunsight, and you can track it all the way from your side windows. I reckon that's more or less the way the actual FW-190 pilots did deflection shooting because the nose gets in the way irrespective of the "bar" blocking gunsight or not.
.. amen! Nice read, well posted! :book:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...