Not stable

[humptydumpty]

Hi,

 

I am from India and have some real ground training in flights but never flown, as i had to cut the training short due financial issues, So i use FSX / XPX for training.

 

I just started using DCS Black Shark, i really like the bird she is just cool. My problem is that the bird does not remain stable at all in flight. my joystick input is stable , the moment i leave the stick she tends to get her nose up / pitch up and also keeps bouncing around. Her attitude is not stable. Do i have to trim her ? I have never flown a heli except in FSX but that was only for a couple flights. I train on the C172 though.

 

Any help appreciated.

[26-J39]

Tha shark is extreemly stable, you must be missing something or just need to put the time in.

Do you have your dampeners/AP channels on ( 4 Square Blue buttons to the right) You should at least have the Pitch & Bank channels on. Those are the top 2 blue buttons. After that trim, trim, trim & practice, practice, practice.

[ZQuickSilverZ]

Yes the Black Shark needs to be trimmed. The reason you are having issues is because you’re fighting your own AP channels for control of the helicopter. You’re trying to do whatever you’re trying to do and the AP channels are trying to keep the helicopter within the parameters of the last known trim.

[humptydumpty]

Tha shark is extreemly stable, you must be missing something or just need to put the time in.

Do you have your dampeners/AP channels on ( 4 Square Blue buttons to the right) You should at least have the Pitch & Bank channels on. Those are the top 2 blue buttons. After that trim, trim, trim & practice, practice, practice.

 

 

 

Yep I have them all ON.

 

Though i would not know much about helis, but I feel it could not be the trim reason being if I trim the C172 on climb / speed she will maintain that and climb perfectly (of course not comparing a fixed wing to a heli) , the shark is going all over the place and it is not just the nose up / down problem it is on all axis.

 

BTW i am using the Logitech Attack 3. RCTRL + ENTER shows the correct caliberation of the stick.

[RagnarDa]

Everybody has trouble understanding the trim and AP channels the first time they fly the Ka-50. I *really* recommend reading this:http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_426a.html especially about the trim and AP.

Edited September 17, 2013 by RagnarDa

[26-J39]

Yep I have them all ON.

 

Ok well you don't need the altitude hold on unless your cruizin so turn that off. That will screw with your collective inputs.

Generally when "flyin about" I take the heading hold off too. If you keep the heading hold on you will need to trim through out the turn ( well at least entering and exiting turn) or hold the trim down throughout the turn, level up with a good attitude and let trim go. You will most likely have to trim a few more times to get a stable level flight.

[26-J39]

Yeah and remember trimming the KA-50 is nothing like trimming a C172.

[26-J39]

Also might be an idea to post a track file so the folk here can see where you are going wrong.

[St3v3f]

For hands on flying, press the blue 'FD' button on the autopilot panel. That will disable autopilot function but maintain stabilization functions.

[Lib]

Yep I have them all ON.

 

Be carefull with your autopilote, at startup don't engage the maintain of altitude if you don't use the collective break ! You may have those stability problems when trying to move your cyclic with the AP altitude engage because of the 20% control it takes on the bird...

Edited September 17, 2013 by Lib

[Lizzard]

you may check

 

 

helped me a lot when I started flying the Shark

[humptydumpty]

Yes the Black Shark needs to be trimmed. The reason you are having issues is because you’re fighting your own AP channels for control of the helicopter. You’re trying to do whatever you’re trying to do and the AP channels are trying to keep the helicopter within the parameters of the last known trim.

 

 

Hey,

 

Is it necessary to keep AP ON ? I don't auto pilot , imo AP is needed only when you have heading /alt / air speed and everything set and let her fly.

 

But this being a chopper I definitely would not know if it is needed. I guess you are talking Pilot Induced Oscillation ?

[humptydumpty]

Yeah and remember trimming the KA-50 is nothing like trimming a C172.

 

Yep .

[Irregular programming]

For hands on flying, press the blue 'FD' button on the autopilot panel. That will disable autopilot function but maintain stabilization functions.

 

I wouldn't advice anyone to do that, it's better to learn how to properly trim the aircraft, it's also easier.

 

 

Hey,

 

Is it necessary to keep AP ON ? I don't auto pilot , imo AP is needed only when you have heading /alt / air speed and everything set and let her fly.

 

But this being a chopper I definitely would not know if it is needed. I guess you are talking Pilot Induced Oscillation ?

 

That's how you fly an airplane but not a helicopter.

 

The AP channels are there to help you, always keep them on, except for as we said before maybe altitude hold. Then trim with every input, if you want to change course trim, change speed trim, trim and trim a lot.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Irregular programming

[Lib]

Hey,

 

Is it necessary to keep AP ON ? I don't auto pilot , imo AP is needed only when you have heading /alt / air speed and everything set and let her fly.

 

I think you make a mistake between auto-pilots (AP), wich are stabilisator helpers, and the EN ROUTE Flight wich is an Automatic Pilot.

 

You need, your AP to be more stable when you pilot her, but you need your Automatic pilot to let her fly and follow your road "without your hands on".

[Fishbreath]

I wouldn't advice anyone to do that, it's better to learn how to properly trim the aircraft, it's also easier.

 

I'm all for the autopilot, as I've said in multiple other threads, but I do actually think there's some value to flight director mode for transitioning fixed-wing pilots to the Ka-50. If you look at it in terms of layering additional functionality onto raw control inputs, it goes like this:

 

No autopilot channels->pitch, bank, yaw channels and FD->three/all channels and autopilot->all channels and route mode

 

There's not really any value at all to the first layer unless you're training for flight control system failures, but flight director mode puts a trainee a lot closer to the basics of helicopter flight dynamics, and that's a critical thing for said trainee to understand before he starts on the autopilot.

[Donglr]

I wouldn't advice anyone to do that, it's better to learn how to properly trim the aircraft, it's also easier.

 

I would everyone advice to do that (unless you have a force feedback joystick). Despite this jerky movement after trimming it gives you a much better feel for what is happening with your helo, where it wants to go and it makes you think why it wants to do that. This helped me a lot in understanding how a helo flies and what forces act where.

 

And yes, helos are inherently unstable.

[humptydumpty]

Wow guys i did not expect so many replies.

 

Yeah it is difficult to transition from a fixed wing to a rotor i guess.

 

Let me jump deep in to the manual.

[Slazi]

Though i would not know much about helis, but I feel it could not be the trim reason being if I trim the C172 on climb / speed she will maintain that and climb perfectly (of course not comparing a fixed wing to a heli) , the shark is going all over the place and it is not just the nose up / down problem it is on all axis.

 

With the shark you need to trim A LOT. Every time you change speed, altitude, heading. If you trim it pitched up, the speed is dropping a little while the altitude is increasing. Both of these factors will require you to trim it again.

 

It takes a while to get used to it. It is nothing like a plane. But its a great machine to fly. Best way to get used to it is just fly it, a lot. Don't worry about using weapons. Just get used to how it handels. If something strange happens, try to do it again and figure out why.

[humptydumpty]

With the shark you need to trim A LOT. Every time you change speed, altitude, heading. If you trim it pitched up, the speed is dropping a little while the altitude is increasing. Both of these factors will require you to trim it again.

 

It takes a while to get used to it. It is nothing like a plane. But its a great machine to fly. Best way to get used to it is just fly it, a lot. Don't worry about using weapons. Just get used to how it handels. If something strange happens, try to do it again and figure out why.

 

 

I have mapped my joystick button to the Trim but i do not think it is trimming well.

 

If i have to keep trimming her during flight then what will happen during attack runs or dogfights , i would not trim at that moment.

 

Of course the speed will drop on altitude gain.

 

I shut off the AP thing and i fly her better.

[nannicek]

Hi...my personal experience...use FD with hands on stick when you are flying out of a task route...free flight...use AP without hands on stick during a task route...three o four AP channels always on...it works better with FFB Joy unfortunately...and it's important to have a right calibration of axis X Y....:)

[Hunden Ynk]

I have mapped my joystick button to the Trim but i do not think it is trimming well.

 

If i have to keep trimming her during flight then what will happen during attack runs or dogfights , i would not trim at that moment.

 

It might help to treat the trim as a dead-man-switch. Meaning, always hold it down as soon as you want to move the stick, release it when done with the maneuver and the aircraft has stabilized at desired attitude. Rember to center your stick (if you're an non FF user). Always holding down a button when moving the stick is not tedious, I promise. You just have to make it into a habit. When the trim button is released, the attitude is programed into the auto pilot, which then will help you to maintain it. But if you're not constantly triming, the AP will instead try to maintain (within it's authority) an no longer valid attitude, hence the feeling of fighting the AP. Also, fighting and flying at the same time is *not* easy.

 

Of course the speed will drop on altitude gain.

If you want to climb without loosing speed; raise the collective to gain altitude and at the same time pitch down to maintain speed. However, that maneuver might be a bit risky if you're already going fast, since the likelihood of a blade collision will increase. The manual says that you should initialize a climb by pulling back on the cyclic if airspeed is greater than 150km/h. Experiment.

 

I shut off the AP thing and i fly her better.

I just bought the Huey, and boy, I think the AP of the Ka-50 is quite amazing.

[humptydumpty]

It might help to treat the trim as a dead-man-switch. Meaning, always hold it down as soon as you want to move the stick, release it when done with the maneuver and the aircraft has stabilized at desired attitude. Rember to center your stick (if you're an non FF user). Always holding down a button when moving the stick is not tedious, I promise. You just have to make it into a habit. When the trim button is released, the attitude is programed into the auto pilot, which then will help you to maintain it. But if you're not constantly triming, the AP will instead try to maintain (within it's authority) an no longer valid attitude, hence the feeling of fighting the AP. Also, fighting and flying at the same time is *not* easy.

 

 

I just bought the Huey, and boy, I think the AP of the Ka-50 is quite amazing.

 

Ok. I will try it as a continuous input during attitude /altitude changes. BTW i was just wondering do any helis have a hover switch ? I mean like in the KA 50 there is a key assigned to it. Is hovering not a controlled thing ?

 

Hmm one thing just came in to my mind is there collective "+" on the numpad. Shouldn't the collective make smaller changes as after a couple key presses she rises too high. LOL i know the documentation should be read properly.

 

Thnx.

Edited September 19, 2013 by humptydumpty

[Hunden Ynk]

I'm not sure what you mean by hovering not being a controlled thing?

The auto hover in the Ka-50 works great, its just needs too be engaged at very low speed, think sub 10km/h, and with the cyclic already trimmed in the correct position. The cyclic needs to be in the correct position (close to center, a bit forward) since the AP only has 20% authority over the controls. If your cyclic is 100 % left, that authority will not be enough to maintain the hover and the aircraft will instead bank left. It's more of a hover hold, butt still very useful, since without it, hovering requires constant re-adjustments.

 

You're spot on about the collective controls requiring a sensitive touch. Most people here probably use their HOTAS throttle as a collective.

[humptydumpty]

I'm not sure what you mean by hovering not being a controlled thing?

The auto hover in the Ka-50 works great, its just needs too be engaged at very low speed, think sub 10km/h, and with the cyclic already trimmed in the correct position. The cyclic needs to be in the correct position (close to center, a bit forward) since the AP only has 20% authority over the controls. If your cyclic is 100 % left, that authority will not be enough to maintain the hover and the aircraft will instead bank left. It's more of a hover hold, butt still very useful, since without it, hovering requires constant re-adjustments.

 

You're spot on about the collective controls requiring a sensitive touch. Most people here probably use their HOTAS throttle as a collective.

 

 

About the hovering, what I meant was in a reali heli is that with a switch or is manually controlled hovering ?