"Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System"

[karambiatos]

How did a thread about american dumb rockets getting laser kits become about Russian versus American guided AT missiles?

 

on this forum everything becomes a Russian vs American thread, or vice versa.

[CypherGrunyev]

#HydramasterRace

[Flagrum]

I still want a mod for this ... :cry:

[Fri13]

i thought 1 of the points of the vikhrs guidance was that its hard to jam.

It is impossible to jam unless you get between missile and laser.

 

Skhval sends a 7° (@100m range) low level laser beam what you can't easily spot with laser warning systems because it is so weak (like 1% of the laser power what is required for hell fire or other laser homing systems) and it delivers a missile a guidance commands to sensor behind the missile (rocket booster being only on one side middle part of the missile, fins cause missile to spin and rocket gives it a direction).

 

The shkval system follows a missile flight and then sends a command codes via laser. You can't jam or disturb the guidance with flares or with smoke or anything because they are front of the missile. If ground unit deploys the smoke, missile is still guided and flying to that direction and it fill fly trough smoke and hit where it was guided.

 

Of course the basic thing with using smokes is that after launching and getting cover, you will move so ground units, radar/laser homing missiles can't hit at you.

 

There are different kind smokes, like normal smoke what just hides from naked eye, IR smoke what hides from thermal view and then smokes what reflects radar waves because they spread out silver/aluminum dust.

And of course there are smokes what include all these special features (vs laser, radar, thermal) but are weak against naked eye.

 

And that is where Vikhr hits, TV guided system sending commands to missile fly where camera see the target.

 

Many Hellfire missules are lost because they can't use radar, IR or laser, so only the TV guided variant works if no normal smoke is launched. And then those missiles gets inertial guides = pure luck to hit a moving target behind smoke.

 

Hellfire is as well slower to fly what gives more time to target move away, laser homing results target to be painted so it knows what is coming, radar guided as well informs the target from being painted.

 

Passive guidance systems like TV, radio or Beam Raider are benefit but TV can't stand smoke, radio can be jammed and beam raider is weaker at mist or at night time.

 

When Vikhr is launched against helicopter or flying airplane, they can pop so many flare or chaff they like or enable IR jammer but those don't help. Only ways is to start maneuvering so you can consume missile energy and cause it miss more than 5m, get behind something so proximity fuze explodes the missile or line of sight is lost.

 

And if you have been flying horizontally to Vikhr launcher the missile is set only to A-A mode where the proximity fuze blows shrapnel's front/rear/above/below of plane to hit. And after launch you can change Vikhr to A-A Head-On mode what would blow shrapnel's toward target, what gives target a change to fly toward missile and because speed difference get it blowing behind you instead at you or next to you.

[Sceptre]

It is impossible to jam unless you get between missile and laser.

 

Skhval sends a 7° (@100m range) low level laser beam what you can't easily spot with laser warning systems because it is so weak (like 1% of the laser power what is required for hell fire or other laser homing systems) and it delivers a missile a guidance commands to sensor behind the missile (rocket booster being only on one side middle part of the missile, fins cause missile to spin and rocket gives it a direction).

 

The shkval system follows a missile flight and then sends a command codes via laser. You can't jam or disturb the guidance with flares or with smoke or anything because they are front of the missile. If ground unit deploys the smoke, missile is still guided and flying to that direction and it fill fly trough smoke and hit where it was guided.

 

Of course the basic thing with using smokes is that after launching and getting cover, you will move so ground units, radar/laser homing missiles can't hit at you.

 

There are different kind smokes, like normal smoke what just hides from naked eye, IR smoke what hides from thermal view and then smokes what reflects radar waves because they spread out silver/aluminum dust.

And of course there are smokes what include all these special features (vs laser, radar, thermal) but are weak against naked eye.

 

And that is where Vikhr hits, TV guided system sending commands to missile fly where camera see the target.

 

Many Hellfire missules are lost because they can't use radar, IR or laser, so only the TV guided variant works if no normal smoke is launched. And then those missiles gets inertial guides = pure luck to hit a moving target behind smoke.

 

Hellfire is as well slower to fly what gives more time to target move away, laser homing results target to be painted so it knows what is coming, radar guided as well informs the target from being painted.

 

Passive guidance systems like TV, radio or Beam Raider are benefit but TV can't stand smoke, radio can be jammed and beam raider is weaker at mist or at night time.

 

When Vikhr is launched against helicopter or flying airplane, they can pop so many flare or chaff they like or enable IR jammer but those don't help. Only ways is to start maneuvering so you can consume missile energy and cause it miss more than 5m, get behind something so proximity fuze explodes the missile or line of sight is lost.

 

And if you have been flying horizontally to Vikhr launcher the missile is set only to A-A mode where the proximity fuze blows shrapnel's front/rear/above/below of plane to hit. And after launch you can change Vikhr to A-A Head-On mode what would blow shrapnel's toward target, what gives target a change to fly toward missile and because speed difference get it blowing behind you instead at you or next to you.

 

Very interesting post, thank you. I've always thought that Russian technology is under rated, and that it's simple but very effective :)

[Emu]

Surely if you apply smoke and move within the smoke, then the aircraft will no longer be able to shine the laser in the right direction. Not so easy in an aircraft though.

 

There can also be general battlefield obscurants rising high into the sky, intervening with the line-of-sight laser. Getting between aircraft and missile.

 

In theory you could intermittently send a similar laser out on a slightly diverging path and then remove it, when the missile is sufficiently of course.

[Isegrim]

Its nice how people here talk about 1980 Ru tech vs 2014 Nato tech.

[Sceptre]

Its nice how people here talk about 1980 Ru tech vs 2014 Nato tech.

 

Because you don't get more bad ass than Cold War Russian tech.

[winz]

Skhval sends a 7° (@100m range) low level laser beam what you can't easily spot with laser warning systems because it is so weak (like 1% of the laser power what is required for hell fire or other laser homing systems) and it delivers a missile a guidance commands to sensor behind the missile (rocket booster being only on one side middle part of the missile, fins cause missile to spin and rocket gives it a direction).

I've problems believing this. If you intend to guide the missile to the target then the laser has to have enough power for the sensor to be able to register the laser, and use it for guidance And if the sensor on the missile is able to register the laser, there is no reason sensor on the target would not.

 

And AFAIK the Skhval doesn't send commands to the vikhr via laser, the vikhr just looks backwards for the laser and tries to fly down the laser beam. If it would send commands via laser then firing vikhrs in pairs would be problematic.

[Fri13]

I've problems believing this. If you intend to guide the missile to the target then the laser has to have enough power for the sensor to be able to register the laser, and use it for guidance And if the sensor on the missile is able to register the laser, there is no reason sensor on the target would not.

 

And AFAIK the Skhval doesn't send commands to the vikhr via laser, the vikhr just looks backwards for the laser and tries to fly down the laser beam. If it would send commands via laser then firing vikhrs in pairs would be problematic.

 

The power can be very low powered because it doesn't need to be reflection for homing. Further laser is needed, stronger it needs to be (power in square to distance) and when it reflects you need even more because the laser emitting to surface isn't reflected back to missile but to everywhere and it is like 1% is reflected back toward missile for missile homing.

 

The Shkval system alternates the laser coding once missile is shot (or once the second missile of pair is fired) and shkval system starts following the missile and altering steering commands to missiles, the beam is 7° degree at 100m range what means it is 100m range already about 5m wide, at 8-10km range the beam is like over 500m wide. The Vikhr needs to stay inside the laser beam to get the commands transmitted via laser. (If the second missile isn't launched, the first one doesn't get guidance via laser and it goes ballistic dumb rocket.)

 

The required laser angle is so wide because the launching platform can be moving quickly to different direction than what is the Vikhr path to target.

Example Su-25T flying straight at 3000m altitude at 480km/h and Vikhr is launched to target at 8km range at ground, the angle difference is huge, now the Su-25T turns and maintains the 30 degree angle to the target, the Vikhr still gets the guidance codes to target via laser.

 

And the laser is very weak, the laser warning systems don't find the laser because they would get warnings from every laser on battlefield, even when they meter distance to target by them self's as the reflected laser would be metered as enemy launcherThe laser to guide missile is no where as powerful as even laser to meter diatance. Somewhere you can pickup the power and calculate the power and it is very very low.

From DCS: KA-50 manual you can as well find about the Vikhr guidance laser functionality.

 

The Vikhr guidance isn't same kind as MCLOS missiles guidance where launcher reads missile rear end and its position can be fooled with strong IR transmitter simulating rocket to fool launcher.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Fri13

[Isegrim]

Hold in mind that the beamride channels of the I-251 are strong enough to be used also during bad wheather conditions.(Fog etc.)

 

The I-251 has a very Powerfull Laserrangerfinder channel which actually uses 4.8 KW of electrical power consumption( Yes thats 4800 Watts, and this is what is producing that heat to make it burnout sometimes).

 

The two beamride channels use around 40-50% of that power.

There have been a discussion about that some years ago here like i remember and i didnt find something to come up with via google today (only DCS contend about that in the I-net it seems).

 

Got it :

 

http://aerospace.boopidoo.com/philez/Su-15TM%20PICTURES%20&%20DOCS/Overscan%27s%20guide%20to%20Russian%20Military%20Avionics.htm

 

You have to scroll down nearly to the bottom.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Isegrim

[ff4life4]

 

The Shkval system alternates the laser coding once missile is shot (or once the second missile of pair is fired) and shkval system starts following the missile and altering steering commands to missiles, the beam is 7° degree at 100m range what means it is 100m range already about 5m wide, at 8-10km range the beam is like over 500m wide. The Vikhr needs to stay inside the laser beam to get the commands transmitted via laser. (If the second missile isn't launched, the first one doesn't get guidance via laser and it goes ballistic dumb rocket.)

 

 

IIRC the Laser degree narrows during the missiles flight, in order to keep the missile accurately on target. Because if it didn't there was no way to have any kind of accuracy if the beam was that wide at 9 km

[Fri13]

IIRC the Laser degree narrows during the missiles flight, in order to keep the missile accurately on target. Because if it didn't there was no way to have any kind of accuracy if the beam was that wide at 9 km

As said, Shkval system tracks missile and sends commands to missile hit target. It isn't riding in the middle of the beam but just inside the beam to follows the commands.

 

 

The beam-riding laser channel creates a control zone along the helicopter-target line of sight for the guidance of the Vikhr ATGM. It is created by scanning two lasers along the horizontal and vertical axis to form the control zone, which is approximately 7 m in radius starting 100 m in front of the helicopter and extends to the target. Missile guidance commands are transmitted inside the control zone relative to the center line of sight and guides the missile‟s trajectory within it. The size of the control zone relative to the missile is maintained constant throughout the missile‟s flight by algorithmically narrowing the emission angles as the missile travels away from the helicopter. The laser beam channel is formatted by a special scanner and laser transmitter. A single missile is launched with a press of the weapon release [RALT + SPACE] button; the scanner will start scanning; and with the missile launched, the laser transmitter will start working. If two missiles are launched in salvo, the first missile launched starts the scanner, but the laser transmitter will not start working until the second missile is launched. Manual slewing control of the targeting system allows you to align the target line of sight with the electro-optical targeting system. Slewing of the system‟s line of sight is accomplished via the “МЕТКА” (Target Marker) hat switch on the Cyclic Stick [,], [.], [/] and [;].

 

So correcting, yes the angle does get narrower by guidance (commands limits missile area), but the power is still very weak and not detectable by LWS.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Fri13

[Isegrim]

The System tries to get the missile as close to the center as possible.

 

The Beamrider laser channels have a diameter of about 5m at 10 kilometers.

[Flagrum]

As said, Shkval system tracks missile and sends commands to missile hit target. It isn't riding in the middle of the beam but just inside the beam to follows the commands.

 

 

 

 

So correcting, yes the angle does get narrower by guidance (commands limits missile area), but the power is still very weak and not detectable by LWS.

My mental picture of the way the beam riding concept works in case of the Vikhr is different - but I could be wrong ofc. So therefore I ask, do you have any source for it?

 

And also regarding the undetectability of the Shkval laser - can you provide sources for that? I was/am under the impression, if the laser reaches the missile all the time and the missile reaches the target, even the target should be able to detect the laser. And I doubt that a LWS, that could detect such low intensity laser energy, would actually be spoofed by other random (friendly) laser reflections (which are by nature not focussed anymore!). Not to mention the fact, that I, as tank driver, would certainly want to know if I am lased - especially if it is not only for range finding, but when the missile is already on the way! :o)

 

edit:

n/m, you already quoted the source for the beam riding mechanism. But I still interprete it differently ... I'll post about it later, have to run atm!

 

edit2:

Yes, yes ... what I meant was: the laser as such has a small diameter, but my understanding is that the electronics moves the laser beam to "paint" a certain pattern in the distance. Like a disco laser. :o) And the missile flies within this pattern (yes, looking backward, seeing the laser) and can determine by the type of patern where in relation to the center of the pattern it is located.

 

Something like this (don't laugh at my artistic [dis]abilities! :o)

 

Missile sees horizontal pattern: it is too high, must fly downward. Vice versa for vertical pattern. If it sees the continuos pattern: too far left, dashed pattern: too far right.

 

My understanding is, that not the Shkval actively tracking the missile and sending steering commands via the laser, but instead applies some sort of modulation to the laser beam that the electronics in the missile can interprete to determine it's relative position in relation to the laser guidance cone center.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Flagrum

[Fri13]

My mental picture of the way the beam riding concept works in case of the Vikhr is different - but I could be wrong ofc. So therefore I ask, do you have any source for it?

 

And also regarding the undetectability of the Shkval laser - can you provide sources for that? I was/am under the impression, if the laser reaches the missile all the time and the missile reaches the target, even the target should be able to detect the laser. And I doubt that a LWS, that could detect such low intensity laser energy, would actually be spoofed by other random (friendly) laser reflections (which are by nature not focussed anymore!). Not to mention the fact, that I, as tank driver, would certainly want to know if I am lased - especially if it is not only for range finding, but when the missile is already on the way! :o)

 

This is about the laser strength for beam raiding functionality.

https://dspace.lib.cranfield.ac.uk/handle/1826/1047

 

 

My understanding is, that not the Shkval actively tracking the missile and sending steering commands via the laser, but instead applies some sort of modulation to the laser beam that the electronics in the missile can interprete to determine it's relative position in relation to the laser guidance cone center.

 

There are different kinds guidance applied to beam raider missiles, basically they are analog or digital. The concept is similar that laser guides the missile but the guidance laser can be directed different location than directly to target itself.

 

Example beam raider for T- tank (don't recall what missile and what guidance system, but it is used even today) where the main guidance is to guide missile above line of sight, simply by using mirror front of the beam to get it higher and then bring missile back to line of sight few hundred meters before hitting the target. Then for emergency situations where you don't know target distance you can fire missile in mode that makes missile fly at line of sight to the end.

 

The main mode requires that you do laser the target, notifying it from your presence. The emergency situation doesn't require laser metering.

 

The Vikhr is guided in similar manner, the Shkval system has three separate functions, strong laser for distance metering and that can/will alert target if close enough (at high altitude strong focused laser isn't such a requirement as for ground vehicles what has flat view and easily that cause situations where laser receiver gets too many echoes from foreground, target and background itself), then there is the laser beam itself and then Shkval TV what you program to different modes like target tracking, fast airplane flying diagonally/sideways or away of you and then for head-on mode.

 

The Shkval follows the target movements and you own movements and translates the laser beam to direction where the missile is calculated to be flying at that moment, like you can do 30-45 degree turn per second until Shkval lose the tracking or the beam is slaved away from the missile path so missile gets unguided one. And of course you need to keep target in Shkval limits as well, but that doesn't require you to fly directly toward target as Shkval can keep target locked, follow plane/helicopter movement changes to launch point and alter the beam direction to keep it pointing to missile in a way where it is guided to fly same point where Shkval itself is pointing. Vikhr is fast missile and it can easily react to sudden changes so you can see how missile fly outside of Shkval line of sight to the target but is still guided to target, but you can as well see how it can get to line of sight line when the target movement/launcher movement is optimal one.

 

What comes to your drawing, that is about the thing for the beam modulation, expect it isn't in different codes for area (like red to top right, green for bottom right, yellow for top left and blue to bottom left) but the laser change the coding periodically so it is like spreadsheet table: A1, A2, A3.... B1, B2, B3....and missile reads the signal what it receives at that moment, knows it is at example H11 and knows it needs to get to E7 to be middle, so with that missile calculates how many rotations it needs to wait on each correction (gyroscope maintaining center direction information) with fins, and when the beam is moved depending missile speed and corrections, it can find out it is guided elsewhere and start doing corrections faster or even if losing beam it can get back with inertial direction calculation.

 

And meanwhile Shkval calculates own position from launched position, translates the raiding beam direction with mirror to meet the Shkval center point at calculated timer end. If doing too fast turn/movement, the beam mirror doesn't stay in sync and missile is out of beam while Shkval is yet/can be maintaining lock.

 

And this cause situations what many finds out where they have lock to target in Skhval and suddenly Vikhr just drops middle at flight or is directed elsewhere.

 

Because line of sight between Shkval camera and target, isn't the beam line or beam pointing direction.

Just like the beam raiding laser isn't same laser as what is used to meter distance. Hence why much lower power and difficulties for target to detect it.

 

There are new warning systems today to detect the weak beam laser and then laze the operator (this against S-A missiles like RBS-70) to get him temporarily blinded just to cause 3-10 second period when missile isn't guided correctly to get it miss the target.

[Emu]

Sounds similar to Starstreak's guidance???

[Heli]

How much weight and lenght does it add

9.5lbs, 18.5"

 

Describe the new rocket components

-laser seeker optics in each of the wings

-IMU, inertial movement unit senses pitch roll and yaw

-laser switch assemblies provide various laser code options

 

thermal battery switch

-firing pin alignment, not electrical switch

-will not drain bat if left on

-off results in ballistic missle

 

nominal fly out sequence

.3 sec battery powers up

.5 wings deploy

.85-1.1 tgt acquired

.92-1.1 de-stress manuvering

1.1 guidance initiates

 

which warheads and fuze

m151, mk152, inert

m423, MK 435 Mod 0

 

tof (Time of Flight)

3.5-18 secs

 

When to put in code

manually on rocket

 

can you use mixed codes

yes but not recommended

 

what\'s the range

1.5-5 km

 

which mode can you use

LOAL

 

max apogee

1000 ft

 

How to fire 2 APKWS At single tgt

interval less than 1 sec

 

if tgt beyond 3km, employ at what alt

> 1500\' HAT

 

optimum employment

3-4km

 

TOF at distances

2-5,3-8, 4-12,5-18.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=36331&page=3

 

BAE Systems Information and Electronics, Nashua, New Hampshire, is being awarded a $45,098,569 modification to a previously awarded firm-fixed-price contract (N00019-14-C-0044) for the procurement of 1,601 advanced precision kill weapon systems II WGU-59/B guidance sections, the Navy shipping and storage containers, and supporting programmatic documentation. Work will be performed in Nashua, New Hampshire (70 percent); and Austin, Texas (30 percent), and is expected to be completed in September 2016.

 

http://www.defense.gov/contracts/contract.aspx?contractid=5447

Edited January 1, 2015 by Heli

[McBlemmen]

wow.. i can only imagine what it would be like to have these in DCS... fire off a big ripple of rockets and know they will all hit where your tgp is looking? yes please :)

[Heli]

another historical event for the American Army Aviation

 

 

The US Army has begun to acquire smart guidance kits for its 70mm (2.75in) rocket systems and is fielding them to frontline units for evaluation, service officials have disclosed.

 

http://www.shephardmedia.com/news/rotorhub/us-army-finally-commits-guided-rockets/

[Heli]

The optimal launch distance for the weapon is three kilometres. At this distance the system has the maximum off-axis capacity of ±15° in azimuth and ±7.5° in elevation.

 

http://armadainternational.com/assets/images/pdf/8._Armada_-_Aug_Sept_2014_Main_Magazine_-_SOFEX_Show_report_.pdf

[Flagrum]

wow.. i can only imagine what it would be like to have these in DCS... fire off a big ripple of rockets and know they will all hit where your tgp is looking? yes please :)

There is hope!