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Bullets Ricochet on Water!?


BiBa
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Isn't weird to see bullets ricochet on water? We heard Jesus walked on water, so maybe the water is holy and Jesus is in the Cockpit!?

 

The Programmers have done a pretty good job in simulating the white mushroom effect when bullets are bouncing on water, which is quite different from those which bounce on the ground with its appropriate ricochets. So if the simulation recognize the difference between hard and liquid surfaces, they only have to delete this beautiful ricochet effect on water, by just deleting this algorithm out of equation. Really no extra work!

 

The advantage out of it is that the Graphic-Card has less calculation to fulfill, which is at the same time a relief of strain to the CPU. So For the sake of total reality, think about in the next Update.

 

 

Additional Edit

To avoid any further misunderstanding and bevor any transverse reader gets the wrong picture:

in my reply further down on this page, I've cleared out what I think is not real in the Ricochet visualisation when I've said:

"The ricochets I'm talking about are happening in DCS at an angle > 30°!"

My statement above is ambivalent, but it does not exclude the fact that Bullet do ricochet on water! I've also clarified this point of view in my reply on Page 6, 07-31-2013, 02:15 AM

"Also the Ricochet's deflection in DCS springs up 45° off the water should be a lot flatter. "

 

The scientific outcome of Ricochet researches on water corner incoming Bullets angle between 0° & <18°


Edited by Biba
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Well, bullets *do* ricochet off water...

Maybe the blunt headed one hitting the water at an angle of less than 10°. All type of guns used in DCS have pointed projectiles!

 

The rest may only happens in your dreams with a little bit magic...

 

Additional Edit

It was a misplaced unnecessary sarcasm... Apologies

Also pointed headed Bullets do ricochet. I was wrong.


Edited by Biba
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Bullets do bounce on water, even the pointy ones.

 

A 5.56 NATO can change it's flightpath as much as 90 degrees by only hitting a small branch on a bush.

 

You will have to give us some kind of proof to prove your statement to us if we are going to belive you, but that might not be easy.

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Maybe the blunt headed one hitting the water at an angle of less than 10°. All type of guns used in DCS have pointed projectiles!

 

The rest may only happens in your dreams with a little bit magic... :doh:

 

Think again......

 

Better yet, do your homework.

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Think again......Better yet, do your homework.

...I see now there have been four other debates on this issue... But I can guarantee you that I, personally have witnessed for hours how some guys sitting in a small boat were fishing with an M16! I didn't witness not one single ricochet! The shooting angle was not > 30°. No need to mention that the velocity of an M16 bullet is a lot less than the caliber of any machine-gun used on planes. The ricochets I'm talking about are happening in DCS at an angle > 30°!

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A very bad example! They were shooting on some targets in the water, and the ricochets you see here are from the bullets hitting the boot! Show me one single video of high caliber velocity projectile >30° ricochet on clear water and you'll win an massage coupon!

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A very bad example! They were shooting on some targets in the water, and the ricochets you see here are from the bullets hitting the boot! Show me one single video of high caliber velocity projectile >30° ricochet on clear water and you'll win an massage coupon!

 

Need proof and better examples ? ...it would have been a good idea to google your own thread title before opening it .


Edited by PeterP

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Bullets do bounce on water, even the pointy ones. A 5.56 NATO can change it's flightpath as much as 90 degrees by only hitting a small branch on a bush. You will have to give us some kind of proof to prove your statement to us if we are going to belive you, but that might not be easy.

It's not a matter of a metaphysical belief related issue like for e.g. if G.O.D. exist or not. You can't prove G exists, and you can't prove G doesn't exist. This is a matter of pure physical properties. You can't compare water density to wooden branch. There are thousand of scenery in Films and documentaries, where you see bullets diving in a shallow angle. Show me one clear video evidence on CLEAR water! The water ricochet is a matter of less than 5% event. This is a very thin marge, and the exception should't be the rule.

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Is that enough?

The second video is the good example of the 10% angle I mentioned above.

The first video, not only it has a bad quality, but is most probably a fake. I'm a camera man and I also work with 3D Max and 2D Photoshop. The bullet that hits the water should cause circular wave disturbances which should make the reflection of the followings turbid. The water surface here remains calm like a mirror. Dump it...

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From the net:

 

Target material

Bullets are more likely to ricochet off flat, hard surfaces such as concrete or steel, but a ricochet can occur on almost any surface, including grassy soil, given a flat enough angle of impact. Materials that are soft, give easily, or can absorb the impact, such as sand, have a lower incidence of ricochet.[2] Though it may not be obvious, bullets easily ricochet off water compare stone skipping.

 

Angle:

The angle of departure, both vertically and horizontally, is difficult to calculate or predict due to the many variables involved, not the least of which is the deformation of the bullet caused by its impact with the surface it strikes. Ricochets will almost always continue on a somewhat diagonal trajectory to their original trajectory, unless the impact is against a flat surface perpendicular to the angle of incidence (or approach), in which case the angle of reflection depends on the other variables involved.

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Biba, may I suggest that you give some examples for your position, both regarding reality and the game itself?

 

You have, in this thread, been given replies by several individuals with extensive military background that hold first-hand experience of this. Knowing how to operate a camera is not the same thing as knowing physics or operating weapons.

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From the net:

 

Target material

Bullets are more likely to ricochet off flat, hard surfaces such as concrete or steel, but a ricochet can occur on almost any surface, including grassy soil, given a flat enough angle of impact. Materials that are soft, give easily, or can absorb the impact, such as sand, have a lower incidence of ricochet.[2] Though it may not be obvious, bullets easily ricochet off water compare stone skipping.

 

Angle:

The angle of departure, both vertically and horizontally, is difficult to calculate or predict due to the many variables involved, not the least of which is the deformation of the bullet caused by its impact with the surface it strikes. Ricochets will almost always continue on a somewhat diagonal trajectory to their original trajectory, unless the impact is against a flat surface perpendicular to the angle of incidence (or approach), in which case the angle of reflection depends on the other variables involved.

This is the type of language I like. So remains to be clarified: At what angle the perpendicular ricochet on water is absorbed! High velocity projectiles hitting a water surface >30° like we witness in DCS is not correct!

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The water surface at see is not a smooth plane. Waves mean that even though the flight path of the projectile may be >30 degrees compared to the average of the water, it might actually strike the water at less - and indeed a substantial fraction of the rounds MUST do this. The inverse is true as well for rounds with a <30 degree angle.

 

 

At ~18 seconds in, there is a shot of a ship being strafed. If you play it slow you can see the rounds that fly past the ship giving both ricochets AND "strikes".

 

If you like, can you tell me at which angle you feel richochets should happen, and supply the physics behind this conclusion? Perhaps show a direct example of what you feel is incorrect (either video or a track)?

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The water surface at see is not a smooth plane. Waves mean that even though the flight path of the projectile may be >30 degrees compared to the average of the water, it might actually strike the water at less - and indeed a substantial fraction of the rounds MUST do this. The inverse is true as well for rounds with a <30 degree angle.

 

I was wondering when this was going to get mentioned. :thumbup:

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without the intent of sounding like john rambo here: I'm very experienced with firearms and have seen and in some occasions felt my share of ricochets. they occur with a wide range of materials at different velocities and different rounds.

 

Near water I have no experience with ricochets and it is possible.. possibly the angle will have to be small but you never know...

 

If it disturbs you in DCS, as you can't see the bottom in the water let's imagine the water is very low and the richochets are from rocks/coral :D

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The water surface at see is not a smooth plane. Waves mean that even though the flight path of the projectile may be >30 degrees compared to the average of the water, it might actually strike the water at less - and indeed a substantial fraction of the rounds MUST do this. The inverse is true as well for rounds with a <30 degree angle...

...Well that is indeed a good argument. I wonder if the complexity of water movement has been virtually embedded in the DCS programming with all its sophistication. That alone would set high demands on the CPU...

...At ~18 seconds in, there is a shot of a ship being strafed. If you play it slow you can see the rounds that fly past the ship giving both ricochets AND "strikes"...

That is not 100% obvious to see, as some might had razed edges and caused deviation of projectiles. Only shots with high speed camera can give a real objective diagnosis. On other cuts in this video, where shots are far away from any target, you don't see one single ricochet on water!

If you like, can you tell me at which angle you feel richochets should happen, and supply the physics behind this conclusion? Perhaps show a direct example of what you feel is incorrect (either video or a track)?

I'll make some research to give a 100% reliable evidence on that. On the other hand, next time if I'm on tour abroad as a war photograph, I'll be shooting a reportage extra for you. Here in Germany that won't be possible for now...

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...Well that is indeed a good argument. I wonder if the complexity of water movement has been virtually embedded in the DCS programming with all its sophistication. That alone would set high demands on the CPU...

 

No, it's not, but the point is that it might have been approximated through a transition zone where some projectiles will ricochet even if angle is higher than the "ingame" smooth surface. I don't know for absolute certain if this is the case in DCS, but it is what I would do if I designed the feature.

 

That is not 100% obvious to see, as some might had razed edges and caused deviation of projectiles. Only shots with high speed camera can give a real objective diagnosis. On other cuts in this video, where shots are far away from any target, you don't see one single ricochet on water!

 

That's a moving goalpost.

You asked for example, you got it.

You can't then require that ALL videos should show it. ;)

 

The thing that has happened here is that you have made the statement that "this is wrong" and then, instead of you showing WHY and HOW it is wrong, you are expecting everyone else to either disprove your statement or be able to show YOU how it is right. This is an inverted burden of proof.

 

I'll make some research to give a 100% reliable evidence on that. On the other hand, next time if I'm on tour abroad as a war photograph, I'll be shooting a reportage extra for you. Here in Germany that won't be possible for now...

 

Another option would be to just get someone to do the physics. I've not seen enough of the equations myself to do it, and am not a physicist so I don't know really how to effectively look for the formulas that might be relevant.

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Another option would be to just get someone to do the physics. I've not seen enough of the equations myself to do it, and am not a physicist so I don't know really how to effectively look for the formulas that might be relevant.

Try this:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/archive/index.php/t-10745.html

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