Is T-90's At-11 undetectable by LWS?

[dimitriov]

Hello :)

 

I post here cause I met a problem yesterday and that i'd like to know if it's a DCS issue or not ...

 

I was on mission, doing AFAC at precisly 4.6 Km from a T-90 convoy, when one of them shot me using an At-11 Refleks.

 

But there was not any kind of LWS alert.

 

I tried again today, this time, with 2 T-90, and came nearer from them (around 3 km). They fired 6 times, 6 At-11, and again, I didn't have any LWS alert.

 

I do not think that it may come from me, I'm a french instructor on Kamov, and I know how to use it ^^.

 

The matter is that the At-11 is a laser-beaming guided missile. I truely don't know if its signal is enough powerful for the LWS. But if it is, it might be an issue in the LWS gestion.

 

Thank you for reading, and answering my request :)

 

Nicolas

Edited July 22, 2013 by dimitriov

[dimitriov]

here is a screen, the T-90 and its At-11 are in my shkval, LWS is mute.

 

[Davis0079]

I just googled it and the AT-11 is a beam riding system.....means we probably should get a warning

 

 

I want to say I've noticed it too...but I thought maybe they were shooting tow missiles....wire guided....no lwr warning

 

Are you sure its a AT-11 coming out of the tank gun and not a tow from the launcher on the side of the tank.....

Edited July 23, 2013 by Davis0079

[dimitriov]

Hi Davis, thank you for your answer :)

 

I'm absolutely sure that it's a Refleks, i post you an external view ( i did it just now), where you can read in the "toolbar" of the view the name of the missile, a 9m119 (at-11 refleks).

 

 

 

From the pit :

 

[Davis0079]

well...there you go....to the best of my knowledge that is in fact a laser guided missile.....

 

 

....you need for one of the testers to see this thread and figure out if it needs to be reported as a bug....or if it is working correctly and we dont get a LWR warning....

 

....maybe post a link to this thread in the DCS:world bug section / objects error / in hopes that the devs and testers are looking at those threads since 1.25 just came out....a tester names Kuky watches and reports alot of problems for ED from those sections

Edited July 23, 2013 by Davis0079

[pepin1234]

If you Startup the Ka-50 manualy you should have the LWR on. If you have made the startup in easy way ( automatic) then is a problem there

[BaD CrC]

"Beam riding" doesn't mean to missile homes on a laser pointed on your chopper. It means it uses laser-coded position information sent by the launcher on the ground which are driven either manually by an operator or by an ecartometer using either visual or infrared image. This information is read by an optical device at the back of the missile. The laser coded position materializes as a 2D grid using a high frequency sweep. As a result, the laser energy is pretty diluted in space meaning that most LWS sensors are unable to detect it.

 

Note that I am not an expert at all on at-11. I used to work on a UK beam riding system called Starstreak which, I believe, is working very similarly to the Vikhr.

[macieksoft]

Beam riding is same thing as Vikhr using, but if Vikhr is launched at you you are getting LWS warn, so you should get it with other laser beam riders aswell.

 

But i'm not sure that AT-11 is beam rider.

[dimitriov]

Hi guys ! :)

 

I just updated to 1.2.5, and the "bug" simply disapeared... I now have an alert just before the Refleks launch (telemetry i think).

 

So there is nothing else to add, the issue is solved! ^^

 

Thank you very much for your answers anyway, :)

 

Nicolas

[Dudikoff]

But i'm not sure that AT-11 is beam rider.

 

All of the Soviet/Russian tank cannon-launched missiles are laser beam riders..

[Davis0079]

page 6-47 of the Ka-50 flight manual says it can possibly detect both rangefinding laser frequencies and the type used when someone is actively guiding a missile at you.....to the point that it even has two different indicator lamps to show which type is currently hitting you

[yoann_q]

page 6-47 of the Ka-50 flight manual says it can possibly detect both rangefinding laser frequencies and the type used when someone is actively guiding a missile at you.....to the point that it even has two different indicator lamps to show which type is currently hitting you

 

you're right , as indicated by dimitriov, in latest 1.2.4 the LWR don't detect the at-11 launch , now with 1.2.5 it's ok but it seems that only the upper one (telemetry) lit ... may be a bug....

[b00ce]

You get an LWR warning when you're being ranged by T80s for their cannons. You should receive an LWR warning when the At-11 is fired.

[dimitriov]

As I said on Check six forums, when a pilot receives a LWS alert, he doesn't stands in hover, waiting for the impact...

 

So it's already less important if we just detect the telemter and not the missile launch... That's enough.

 

But you're right, there still is a bug there...

[159th_Viper]

You get an LWR warning when you're being ranged by T80s for their cannons. You should receive an LWR warning when the At-11 is fired.

 

There are two different lasers at play here: One is the rangefinder for which you will receive a warning. The next is the laser grid used for missile tracking for which you will not get a warning.

[yoann_q]

There are two different lasers at play here: One is the rangefinder for which you will receive a warning. The next is the laser grid used for missile tracking for which you will not get a warning.

 

ok thanks, but on which type of missile the lower part of the indicator shall be lit ? see the extract of the manual below

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/pMQpeuQiFPOu5sI5_8mNyC7oDFwY0D7RYoYco4rT_dQ?feat=directlink

[159th_Viper]

ok thanks, but on which type of missile the lower part of the indicator shall be lit ? see the extract of the manual below.....

 

For a beam-rider only 1-3 (whichever one applicable) will be lit.

[macieksoft]

All of the Soviet/Russian tank cannon-launched missiles are laser beam riders..

 

Why AT-11 is not spinning around laser beam like Vikhr in DCS?

Its flying directly to the target without spinning. Its another bug in DCS or its ok?

[Davis0079]

the vikhrs spins because its fins only deflect one direction....it has to spiral to be able to turn all directions

 

the need for the at-11 to spin is determinded by if the control surfaces (fins) can deflect both right and left, or both up and down...how ever you want to look at it....

 

the good old super web doesnt have alot of info for my first search.....it doesnt talk about the fin design so I have no idea if it should or should not spin....

 

 

.....I do think the Ka-50s LWR should detect the guiding funnel just like it does the vikhrs.....your second warning light should turn on....imo

Edited July 25, 2013 by Davis0079

[Dudikoff]

Why AT-11 is not spinning around laser beam like Vikhr in DCS?

Its flying directly to the target without spinning. Its another bug in DCS or its ok?

 

I'm not qualified to answer that, but after skimming a bit through those links below, I'd guess that the guiding principles are different - the Vikhr obviously rotates around the laser beam, but (*PROBABLE MISINFORMATION WARNING*) I think the Refleks is kept within a laser matrix of a sort projected with a PRISM and controlled by the weapon control system - e.g. after the target has been ranged by a standard laser ranging device (which can be detected by the Ka-50 LWS), the missile is fired and is then "picked up" by this guiding laser matrix or whatever it is and is taken above the direct line-of-sight to the target, only to be lowered before the target range is reached; the missile guidance is keeping the missile within this matrix. There seems to be another mode where the missile is guided at the line of sight level throughout (to be used in cases the range to the target is not known). I guess this laser matrix used for guidance would probably not be strong enough to trigger the LWS and hence why it doesn't in the DCS KA-50. But, I'd need to invest more time into reading this and translating which I don't have time for right now so I opted for the lazy version of skimming, using imagination and outright lying.. :)

 

There is some related info here so feel free to study it and afterwards preferably write a summary of how it ACTUALLY works..

 

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=hr&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.kotsch88.de/f_9k119.htm

 

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=hr&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.kotsch88.de/al_lenksysteme.htm&usg=ALkJrhhFYr8N2mWLKk9qjAtFjbkopqiEbQ#refleks

 

 

It would be nice to find a concise description of the principles used (using layman's terms, like "this is Mr. Missile") :) Thanks in advance..

Edited July 25, 2013 by Dudikoff

[159th_Viper]

.....the Vikhr obviously rotates around the laser beam, but (*PROBABLE MISINFORMATION WARNING*).....

 

No.

 

The Vikhr, as with all beam riders, rotates within a laser grid.

 

 

.....I do think the Ka-50s LWR should detect the guiding funnel just like it does the vikhrs.....your second warning light should turn on....imo

 

No - grid too weak to be detected.

[BaD CrC]

"Beam riding" doesn't mean to missile homes on a laser pointed on your chopper. It means it uses laser-coded position information sent by the launcher on the ground which are driven either manually by an operator or by an ecartometer using either visual or infrared image. This information is read by an optical device at the back of the missile. The laser coded position materializes as a 2D grid using a high frequency sweep. As a result, the laser energy is pretty diluted in space meaning that most LWS sensors are unable to detect it.

 

Wish I had your credibility Viper... :(:D

[Dudikoff]

The Vikhr, as with all beam riders, rotates within a laser grid.

 

Yes, around this "funnel". My wrong assumption that there must be some difference was based on the images of the old missile behaviour in DCS World where the missile was circling with a very high radius till the impact which would be an issue on tanks in direct profile attack mode. I didn't fly the Ka-50 for a long time so I didn't see the new behaviour, but IIRC the rotation radius was dramatically reduced.

 

Then basically, you shouldn't get an LWS warning when engaged by the Vikhr system either unless the target is constantly ranged throughout the engagement by the WCS?

[yoann_q]

For a beam-rider only 1-3 (whichever one applicable) will be lit.

 

so 1 & 5 shall lit for semi active laser missile ? like hellfire is it correct ?

[yoann_q]

"Beam riding" doesn't mean to missile homes on a laser pointed on your chopper. It means it uses laser-coded position information sent by the launcher on the ground which are driven either manually by an operator or by an ecartometer using either visual or infrared image. This information is read by an optical device at the back of the missile. The laser coded position materializes as a 2D grid using a high frequency sweep. As a result, the laser energy is pretty diluted in space meaning that most LWS sensors are unable to detect it.

 

Note that I am not an expert at all on at-11. I used to work on a UK beam riding system called Starstreak which, I believe, is working very similarly to the Vikhr.

 

if a at-11/vihkr/kornet missile guidance sensor is sensible enought to detect the laser emitted by the firing unit , why the LWS of the Ka-50 is not able to do the same? the missile will travel to the Ka-50 distance