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A-10c refueling Questions


jmainjet
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I have a download version of air refueling(for practice.) I managed to get it into the game and start flying it.

 

I was attempting to hook up for refuel and I'm down to 180 knots for the trim and matching speed of the KC135. Its seems too slow. Am I doing something wrong with the loading of the download? When I check in Mission editor, all presets look good. 230 knots for the KC135. and around the same for the A-10c. Can I change the refueling speed to 210Knots? If so, how?

 

I'm impressed with the skill level just to get hooked in. Now that I'm hooked into this game I'd like to be the best at it. Please send your ideas along so as to make the experience a great one. I would like to be tutored if possible.

 

Thanks

 

John (Bait1):pilotfly:

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I've spent over 30 hours and over a year trying to refuel. I have a $150 joystick. I've also watched all the vids and run all the refuel training missions.

 

My problem is no matter I use the joystick throttle or key throttle, neither of them is fine enough to keep from collapsing or backing off the boom once I get connected, and the trim/lift problems these large speed changes cause when all I do is tap the controls and not even move them enough to feel the movement. The key controls are not fine enough. Control of the sim is just too course for me and the constraints placed on the sim.

-Pv-

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What I did to get started was adjust my curves in game for both pitch and roll to 30. This helped make the small adjustments you are looking for. Once you get the hang of it you can back the settings off as required (or just leave them if they work for you).

 

Options/controls/axis commands

 

Good luck...

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For an A10c, depending on altitude and load out you will probably be tanking between 170 and 210knts.

 

If you require any assistance please PM me and I will be happy to help.

 

In the mean time, the following bits of advice:

 

1) Practice practice practice. No, really. I am not trying to be trite, it will take you 10's of hours to get to the point where you can connect and take fuel for more than a few seconds.

 

2) Breath and relax. Again, really, just see if you finish with a sore wrist or find yourself holding your breath.

 

3) Break down the process. Begin with matching speed with the tanker, trimming out and holding perfect position on its wing. Then just stay in pre contact and do the same. Then practice making contact and coming straight off again. Then try and hold for 5 seconds, 10 seconds, 30 seconds etc. Then do it all again in a turn. It will help to break it down like this.

 

3) Trim Trim Trim. Unless you have a perfect trim you are going to struggle.

 

4) TINY movements, of both stick and throttle. Remember that to hold contact you are talking about speed changes of LESS than one knt. That equates to barely enough pressure to move the throttle - its a similar deal with the stick.

 

5) Anticipation. If you are coming towards the boom and think 'im too fast and I think I should slow down' odds are you are probably too late. Go really slow and take your time. Despite what it looks like, its easier to speed up in control than it is to slow down, so don't be afraid to let the tanker move away rather than crashing into it. Same applies with the boom. Look up PIO (Pilot Induced Ossilation) and read up on it - it will be your biggest problem. Understand it. Learn to see it in your flying and learn how to counter it.

 

Best of luck and of all the above, 1 is most important.

 

-Sharpe

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Unfortunately the refueling in the game has a lot of refinement to be done. Unintelligent pilots in the tanker, plus you don't have an intelligent boom operator. In real life, its not as touchy. As long as you get into a "decent" position, the boom operator will actually move it to you.

 

In this one you can see the boom operator make some "drastic" adjustments"

 

 

Even on the slower A-10 adjustments are made by the boom operator.

 

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I find it helps to concentrate on the tanker itself rather than the boom. Give it a try, if might help.

 

Oh, and practice. It's no coincidence that the more realistic these Sims get, the harder they are. There is a reason it takes a long time to train a pilot; it's difficult with much to learn. Don't expect to be able to go everything right away, keep at it and you'll get there in the end!

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The speed you see in the ME is ground speed and I think there is a box somewhere to change the speed if you click on the aircraft, but I'm not sure and can't really check right now. For staying connected, I pick a spot on the canopy and keep a part of the tanker in that spot at all times. Trying to chase the boom will cause you to overreact and disconnect or worse, crash. Also, if you do disconnect all you need to do is push the nose wheel steering button to reset instead of opening and closing the fuel door.

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Proper refuelling speed for the A-10 is 200 KIAS, not 170 or 210 or anything "depending on payload", its 200 KIAS plain and simple.

 

In addition the optimum altitude block for AAR in the Hog is 10,000 to 14,000 feet MSL.

 

So for mission editor purposes going in the middle of the block at 12,000 feet MSL you want a true airspeed of approximately 245 KTAS. I say approximately because the exact value will vary slightly depending on air temperature. But put simply, you're aiming for 200 KIAS, set whatever TAS is necessary to achieve that speed.

 

Going slower is not easier, as the aircraft will begin to handle poorly and the engines will not be at the most responsive. Likewise goings much faster will not help as you will not have sufficient performance to safely manoeuvre around the tanker.

 

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Unfortunately the refueling in the game has a lot of refinement to be done. Unintelligent pilots in the tanker, plus you don't have an intelligent boom operator. In real life, its not as touchy. As long as you get into a "decent" position, the boom operator will actually move it to you.

 

Actualy from my experience the boom operator actualy is quite ok, he moves the boom a lot and try to contact/keep contact if you are still in decent position.

Its the tanker **** pilot that moves the plane without notice.

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practice makes perfect:

 

my 17th attempt:

 

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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If the speed at which the A-10 is most successful is so critical, this pretty much rules out success as it's unlikely the current crop of practice missions are going to work without editing. The likelihood these perfect conditions are going to be used in the sim by combat mission tankers within missions and campaigns is even more unlikely to me.

 

The more I work with this, the more likely I'll avoid tanking altogether considering the ratio of tanking maneuver time VS combat time. I know in real life pilots spend more time in getting to-from and tanking than patrol and combat, but I do not have eight hours a day for years (as pilots in training are getting paid to spend doing this, and they die or wash out if they do not.) I was pretty good at tanking in Falcon4 but this sim just does not have the fine control necessary. My throttle doesn't even have to move for the speed to change unrecoverably. If I breathe the speed changes by two knots.

-Pv

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Guys go add some curve to the X/Y axis. Night and day difference for me (TMWH) and I pretty much connected and refuelled immediately after. Prior to that I was dancing all over the sky.

 

You can also do the same for the throttle for fine adjustments but I didn't like it and have mine on stock.

 

The other thing to do is to just ignore the boom and focus on the tanker in relation to a point on your HUD and just aim to keep it there.

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Slow down, relax, take your time :)

 

I would highly recommend Dragon's training pack, the freeflight missions are great for tanker practice.

 

Jump in the sim, get airborne, radio the tanker intent to refuel.

 

Track em down with TACAN, or you can hook their escort.

 

Spend a little time flying with the tanker to get comfortable, the f-15 escort makes a great buddy for formation flying!

 

nx3k.jpg

 

Once you are comfortable drop back and slightly below the tanker, get your speed matched up and trim level, open fuel slew handle and radio ready pre-contact.

 

iieo.jpg

 

Move up to the boom SLOW, its not a race so try to overtake by 1-2kts to start. I also like to zoom the view out a bit to keep the tanker in view and keep your head UP! Don't waste time looking down for anything.

 

lctk.jpg

 

8ey9.jpg

 

Try to keep your nose level, tiny shifts in attitude up/down will get you rocking on the boom in a hurry, fine adjustments to the stick and throttle is all you need to stay connected.

 

Pause, smile, take screenshots. (for the OP, 197 knots indicated, 245 kts ground speed)

 

7ron.jpg

 

vez9.jpg

 

Transfer complete, disconnecting... :pilotfly:

 

4hjl.jpg

 

So long and thanks for the gas!

 

X52pro, no trackIR, no curves etc, default axis settings for the stick.


Edited by peacedivision
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it's so easy to fall into the PIO, I use the depressable piper as an absolute reference to attitude it helped stop me chasing the VVI around.

 

What I do to use it is adjust it to match the VVI position when in trimmed out level flight with speed matched to the tanker (it is that right most rocker

switch on the UFC, keep your eye on the HUD when you hold it down)

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Already a lot of very good advice here. I'd just like to add my two cents.

 

I've read that with a split throttle, making tiny speed adjustments is easier by moving just one throttle back or forward. Personally I never used this option, but I think it's actually what RL pilots in twin engine fighters do in AAR.

 

Another very important lesson it to not chase the boom. I know, I know, it's easier said than done, but it's also a typical rookie mistake to chase the boom instead of trying to find the ideal position behind the tanker and letting the boom operator do the fine adjustments.

 

To reiterate the single most important point: practice, practice, practice. AAR is challenging and may look impossible at first. We've all been there. Despite F4 experience, I had to learn the whole procedure again in A-10C.

 

And at the end of the day, good hardware surely makes a difference, but even with a TMWH I use curves on X and Y axis (30 initially, currently down to 15 on both axes).

 

It's my experience that AAR looked almost impossible at first, then after several hours it started to feel accomplishable and then, rather suddenly and a bit unexpected, it clicked.

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Log another one.

 

This is just how I do air refueling in the A-10C DCS World.

 

The key points:

 

- Just practice and practice and practice and practice and practice!

- If you are drifting out of position, then concentrate on correcting one axis at a time: X-Axis, Y-Axis & Z-Axis

- No rudder input ever!!

- I try and position my sight picture of the boom knuckle and the coloured green band of the boom, as close to the top of the HUD glass as possible and keep it LOCKED at that position.

- If the boom knuckle is positioned correctly, then I can see the wings of the KC-135 visible between canopy bulkhead and the cockpit mirrors.

- If the boom knuckle is positioned correctly, then I can see the cowling of the left and right engine nacelles in the HUD quarter panel glass left and right of the centre HUD glass.

- No curves, No dead zones, Linear Y=X ( This is a personal preference)

- My eyes are constantly scanning the same sight pictures over and over, watching my visual references – centered boom knuckle, centered green boom bar, right engine cowling, right wing at right mirror, left wing at left mirror, left engine cowling, back to boom in the middle. Check for X, Y Z axis, Am I on profile? Yes or No. Then repeat the same sight scanning picture.

- My eyes are watching my visual reference points and very small, refined stick and throttle movements. It’s just practice, just experience.

 

Your stick and throttle are an important but I’ll leave you with something to consider. I practiced (that word again!) my A-10C skills using the Logitech Attack3 for twelve months. Eventually in time, my wife allowed me to purchase a Thrustmaster Warthog (great stick). Aerial refueling can be accomplished with ANY stick. I have a guy in my squadron who uses an X-Box controller and he regularly does the business with it. So use whatever you have and make do if you can’t get the best stick. It is just a muscle memory skill from dozens and dozens and dozens of hours of stick time. There are a few AAR videos I have, and if you practice twice a day, for 5 days a week, eight months and you will get better.

 

Redfish

 

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Proper refuelling speed for the A-10 is 200 KIAS, not 170 or 210 or anything "depending on payload", its 200 KIAS plain and simple.

 

In addition the optimum altitude block for AAR in the Hog is 10,000 to 14,000 feet MSL.

 

So for mission editor purposes going in the middle of the block at 12,000 feet MSL you want a true airspeed of approximately 245 KTAS. I say approximately because the exact value will vary slightly depending on air temperature. But put simply, you're aiming for 200 KIAS, set whatever TAS is necessary to achieve that speed.

 

Going slower is not easier, as the aircraft will begin to handle poorly and the engines will not be at the most responsive. Likewise goings much faster will not help as you will not have sufficient performance to safely manoeuvre around the tanker.

 

Good info to know - cheers Eddie. But it is worth remembering that you will ultimately tank at the speed the mission editor set the tanker. As I say, that tends to be between 170-210knts between 15-22k. Often the ME sets the tanker speed according to the load that the A10 might be carrying. Just my experience but at least I know what speed to set tankers for in a mission :)

 

Eddie also makes a good point that I forgot to mention in my first post:

-Low speed and drag make tanking very hard too. Practice at speeds above 180knts and with minimal stores (its a personal choice. Some people like the aircraft to be heavy and less responsive, others prefer it light and twitchy). But eddie is quite right the lower your air speed and the more drag you have (stores, speedbrakes, flaps) the more wallowy the aircraft which makes tanking very hard.

-Sharpe

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Proper refuelling speed for the A-10 is 200 KIAS

 

220 KIAS actually.

Minimum altitude is 5000 AGL if if mission requirements dictate.

 

AARspeeds.jpg~original

dUJOta.jpg

 

 

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I have a split throttle. It helps, but not enough. Another complication is the speed setting in the editor is not IAS (as displayed by default when the plane loads up) but ground speed so there is a difference in about 35-40 knots depending on altitude. In a year setting controller curves, what works in combat where agility is needed doesn't work in refueling where finesse is needed. Not to mention working to get close to pre-contact, opening the fuel door and having everything I've done to that point thrown out the window, so the door needs to be opened a great distance away while setting up speed trimming.

 

In nearly 25 years of simming, I've found real world charts and specs often go out the window and are an exercise in "I know more than you do" and the sim pilot really ends up having to discover by trial and error what REALLY WORKS within the context of the computer program regardless.

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220 KIAS actually.

Minimum altitude is 5000 AGL if if mission requirements dictate.

 

AARspeeds.jpg~original

 

You're doing it again. :P That'll teach me to rely on memory rather than checking the docs.

 

Something tells me that not flying much at the moment is not doing my skills currency any good. :D

 

But regardless. AAR is not difficult, it just takes some practice. And obsessing over it isn't good either as you'll only end up frustrated and make more mistakes.

 

The errors in mission design don't help either. You're much better off putting your own mission together, it only takes a few seconds. The biggest mission design errors are speed too low, and altitude too high.

 

Also as mentioned, the ATP-56 is the official NATO AAR TTP document for those interested. It is available on the RAF website as linked above. But be warned, it's not a short document.

 

Spoiler

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Since everyone is quoting documents ;)

 

Here is what the 1A-10C-1 states concerning Air Refueling from a KC-135:

 

Airspeeds and Altitudes.

With KC-135 tankers, Air Refueling Airspeed is 220 KCAS at a base planning altitude of 15,000 feet. The tanker gross weight will be the prime consideration when determining the refueling airspeed and altitude. The use of speed brakes on the A-10C is not recommended.

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The use of speed brakes on the A-10C is not recommended.

 

Does this mean while hooked on or during the move from pre-contact to contact?

 

If its the latter then Youtube seems to show real pilots don't think much of this recommendation.

Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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