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Air to air radar simulation


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I'm interested if air-to-air radar detection is simulated..

Does the positioning of plane changes how calculation of probability of hit is done? (like reflected radar cross section)

For example if plane is flying sideways and its position is with canopy upper side towards enemy plane.. will enemy get better chanse of hitting it than if it would be facing straight forwards? (not including the target plane speed)

 

EDIT

I've got idea for simulating the amount of radar being reflected from target.

 

http://postimg.org/image/r35rpwyhv/

The idea is that the game calculates the "Field" (S) from the edges of rendered polygons

In picture above you can see 3 planes.

Number one is how player sees the plane.

Number two is how points are created on the main edges of the Visually rendered polygons.

Number three shows from what 2d image the computer/game engine calculates the field S in cm, m, game units.. what ever is better for computing consumption.

Which then gives/removes the advantage of defending plane. (by advantage i mean how factor x would involve in determination of what is the possibility of missile hitting the plane)

What is factor x?

"Factor x" could be % added to already done calculations of possibility of hit (like speed, angle, crosswinds ect..) with maximum value of maybe +20-30%.

 

For example if pilots speed and flight angle gives the attacking pilot a 50% possibility of hit.. but with factor x it would be (in picture above case) 50% + 20%.

 

What do you think about this idea?


Edited by Hackeriss.lv

Flight sim addict, physics freak, mathematics degenerate :D

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The differences in RCS according to the angle the plane is being painted is not simulated per se, what we have is a simplification, targets closing up are detected earlier than targets going away from you. The doppler notch of a target beaming you is also simulated, and if I don't forget anything not much more is simulated.

Some work in the air to air radar implementation would be ideal, but not on top of the to-do list right now I guess.

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The differences in RCS according to the angle the plane is being painted is not simulated per se, what we have is a simplification, targets closing up are detected earlier than targets going away from you. The doppler notch of a target beaming you is also simulated, and if I don't forget anything not much more is simulated.

Some work in the air to air radar implementation would be ideal, but not on top of the to-do list right now I guess.

 

Thank you for your answer!

I've got something in mind for air-air radar simulation!


Edited by Hackeriss.lv

Flight sim addict, physics freak, mathematics degenerate :D

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Air-Air radar simulation concept.

 

I've got idea for simulating the amount of radar being reflected from target.

 

http://postimg.org/image/r35rpwyhv/

The idea is that the game calculates the "Field" (S) from the edges of rendered polygons

In picture above you can see 3 planes.

Number one is how player sees the plane.

Number two is how points are created on the main edges of the Visually rendered polygons.

Number three shows from what 2d image the computer/game engine calculates the field S in cm, m, game units.. what ever is better for computing consumption.

Which then gives/removes the advantage of defending plane. (by advantage i mean how factor x would involve in determination of what is the possibility of missile hitting the plane)

What is factor x?

"Factor x" could be % added to already done calculations of possibility of hit (like speed, angle, crosswinds ect..) with maximum value of maybe +20-30%.

 

For example if pilots speed and flight angle gives the attacking pilot a 50% possibility of hit.. but with factor x it would be (in picture above case) 50% + 20%.

 

What do you think about this idea?

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Flight sim addict, physics freak, mathematics degenerate :D

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It's not a useful idea. If you want you can store a few different values per say 10 degrees of angle, but even then for this to matter you have to simulate what happens at the signal receiver, how radar jitter/glint is filtered at the receiver, and other such fun things in order for this to matter.

 

It's completely beyond the scope of a flight simulator - in fact, such EM simulations tend to require dedicated software which takes its time to run. They are not suitable for a flight sim.

 

DCSW has a single RCS value for each aircraft. It would be possible to either store several RCS values depending on angle, or an RCS template that takes the assigned RCS and transforms it based on the viewing angle, but right now there is no need and this is not useful.

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Different RCS for different angles is imho better solution, it requires much less computation power and things that are not bound to geometry are easier to simulate, like seeing compresor blades from various angles.

 

But if you take up to max of 6 points which are just the most further from rendered polygon (not whole model polygon) field center.

Its worth try.. i would be happy to test this thing my self but my hands are tied.

Flight sim addict, physics freak, mathematics degenerate :D

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Having the simplified RCS keeps the code rolling. Adding a basic lookup table based on the target's relative pitch/roll/yaw would reward proper use of aspect for closing tactics and SAM/AAA radar avoidance with very little cost in performance. However, RCS is very complex and not readily predicted by physical geometry. Actual numbers for a given aircraft are usually unavailable beyond the basic average RCS. So any such tables would be wild a** guesses. In reality, the RCS varies greatly with even the slightest change in aspect. So, at best you are only going to use an "average" value for a given aspect even with a lookup table. Just a question of how many aspect angles the table would contain and what sort of formula you would use to estimate the RCS value for that aspect given a 3d model and the overall average RCS.

 

While I would like to see players rewarded for carefully controlling their aspect relative to radars, I don't see how assigning arbitrary numbers to a lookup table is any more realistic than using a published or even an assumed average RCS. I can live with it as it is from a realism perspective. It would still be fun to have a lookup table for gameplay purposes even with the numbers having to be fudged.

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First, just computing RCS from area is not good enough. The complex interactions of EM waves mean you could have an element the size of a fist that has a huge RCS, or an element the size of a tennis court that has a tiny reflected RCS. I don't know if you are doing an EM computation - and even if you did, you have to run it against each radar frequency that the game represents.

 

There is no '% chance to hit' ... the missile guides to the target unless it cannot find a target or if something interferes, like chaff. That has a certain percentage change of happening, but realistically it is not really based on probabilities, just SNR and doppler (again, depending on the missile's capabilities, which may take into account a lot more factors than SNR itself - some missiles are capable of tracking the target in horrible conditions, or are able to tolerate temporarily losing the target).

 

In other words, the way I understand what you have suggested is not appropriate for realistic simulation, and it is not appropriate for efficient simulation.

 

if you had proper EM simulation, then you could run it to create tables of RCS values for each aircraft (you would not do this real-time, it is not efficient), and that could be eventually incorporated into the game. It would have a small effect on tactics for a small number of people, so it is a lot of effort for little return - that is my guess.

 

Well then the "factor x"could have higher %

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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First, just computing RCS from area is not good enough. The complex interactions of EM waves mean you could have an element the size of a fist that has a huge RCS, or an element the size of a tennis court that has a tiny reflected RCS. I don't know if you are doing an EM computation - and even if you did, you have to run it against each radar frequency that the game represents.

 

There is no '% chance to hit' ... the missile guides to the target unless it cannot find a target or if something interferes, like chaff. That has a certain percentage change of happening, but realistically it is not really based on probabilities, just SNR and doppler (again, depending on the missile's capabilities, which may take into account a lot more factors than SNR itself - some missiles are capable of tracking the target in horrible conditions, or are able to tolerate temporarily losing the target).

 

In other words, the way I understand what you have suggested is not appropriate for realistic simulation, and it is not appropriate for efficient simulation.

 

if you had proper EM simulation, then you could run it to create tables of RCS values for each aircraft (you would not do this real-time, it is not efficient), and that could be eventually incorporated into the game. It would have a small effect on tactics for a small number of people, so it is a lot of effort for little return - that is my guess.

 

Please can you explain in details how a-a radar works right now?

Flight sim addict, physics freak, mathematics degenerate :D

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An aircraft is detected and presented to you in-game at the range the radar equation says it should, based on an RCS value assigned to the target and the power of your radar.

 

This is modified by target aspect and emitter PRF. The doppler effect is also modeled for this - specifically, you will disappear form the radar if you enter the doppler notch.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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An aircraft is detected and presented to you in-game at the range the radar equation says it should, based on an RCS value assigned to the target and the power of your radar.

 

This is modified by target aspect and emitter PRF. The doppler effect is also modeled for this - specifically, you will disappear form the radar if you enter the doppler notch.

 

oh.. well i though that game uses only the range speed and flight direction calculations so i guess that the thing that's already in game is good enough.

Anyway thanks for info ;)

Flight sim addict, physics freak, mathematics degenerate :D

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Flight sim addict, physics freak, mathematics degenerate :D

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