Using the R-27

[popcorn]

Having a lot of trouble with it. It often misses from range and doesn't lock in close. Any tips for a n00b?

 

Is there a minimum range?

 

I take it the R-27R/ER is just a really bad missile?

 

Not sure I should have been able to fire an R-27ET based on a radar lock (see track).

R-27ET.trk

Edited June 30, 2013 by popcorn

[Brisse]

It's not a bad missile once you learn it's strong and weak points.

Most importantly, it's semi active. I take it you already know that?

[159th_Falcon]

It's not a bad missile.

It's a bad understanding of said missile.

 

May i suggest you do some research on Semi Active Radar Homing Missiles? (R-27R and R-27ER, ER is extended range version of the R)

As well as so called "heat" seeking missiles? Which would be the R-27ET

(Extended version of the 27R, but instead of semi active radar homing its an heatseeker)

 

After that i would suggest doing some research on how to defeat said missiles, keywords for the radar variants would be

Beaming, notching and chaff

For the heat seekers it would be

Flares, beaming

 

Due to less then optimal implementation of seeker heads by ED and countermeasures like Chaff the 27R and 27ER are quite easily spoofed.

Still, there quite usable.

(aim120, aim7 and R77 suffer from the same effects)

[popcorn]

Well I was doing some quick practices, F-15C vs 2 MiG-31s and Su-27 vs 2 F-14s. The R-27ER hit rate is about 1 in 3 or 4 from 10-15km. The AIM-120C hits most of the time and so does the R-27ET. Is this normal?

[popcorn]

It's not a bad missile once you learn it's strong and weak points.

Most importantly, it's semi active. I take it you already know that?

Yeah I know how that works.:) I keep it locked all the way but is still goes off on its own course most of the time. The ET is way better. Shame you can only carry two. I also note that you can't initiate a BVR lock inside about 10km with radar, is that right?

[Nate--IRL--]

Yeah I know how that works.:) I keep it locked all the way but is still goes off on its own course most of the time. The ET is way better. Shame you can only carry two. I also note that you can't initiate a BVR lock inside about 10km with radar, is that right?

 

You should be able to - however radar lock is more easily achieved with the other modes in Visual range..

 

Nate

[Frostie]

Yeah I know how that works.:) I keep it locked all the way but is still goes off on its own course most of the time. The ET is way better. Shame you can only carry two. I also note that you can't initiate a BVR lock inside about 10km with radar, is that right?

Unfortunately that's the way it is in FC3 at the moment, if this is true to life it makes you wonder why Russians bother carrying R-27ER/R why not carry a payload full of ET's. :D

[pyromaniac4002]

Yeah I know how that works.:) I keep it locked all the way but is still goes off on its own course most of the time. The ET is way better. Shame you can only carry two. I also note that you can't initiate a BVR lock inside about 10km with radar, is that right?

 

You can but there are a number of reason trying to use BVR mode within a certain distance is much more difficult.

 

First off, the closer you are to your target, the narrower the field of view of your radar has in terms of the minimum and maximum altitudes it's scanning. If there's any substantial difference in altitude between you and your target, you'll find it hard to get just the right slewing adjustment that will allow you to see him. That's what the boresight and vertical scan modes are for, so just practice visualizing where that target is in relation to you as you approach, and put the general area that he's in inside the scanning zone of your HUD, or in the 29 or 27, your HMD.

 

Second, the longer range missiles aren't as adept at close combat because they're much larger and heavier than their short range R-73 and AIM-9 counterparts. They're meant to have more space to acquire and home in on the target, so if it's too close, you might find that the missile misses its target designation, be it radar painting or IR, altogether and goes ballistic. The SARH method is especially susceptible.

 

The -27R and ER are both effective missiles in their element. You just gotta practice how to use them.

[Brisse]

Unfortunately that's the way it is in FC3 at the moment, if this is true to life it makes you wonder why Russians bother carrying R-27ER/R why not carry a payload full of ET's. :D

 

Russian doctrine is to fire two missiles at the same target. By using two different seekers at the same time, they make it harder for the target to defend itself.

[pepin1234]

Having a lot of trouble with it. It often misses from range and doesn't lock in close. Any tips for a n00b?

 

Is there a minimum range?

 

I take it the R-27R/ER is just a really bad missile?

 

Not sure I should have been able to fire an R-27ET based on a radar lock (see track).

 

The goal is pushing you to take the F-15 to win. Can you Forget it with the R-27. The only success you can get with this Missile is against inexperts Pilots ( Normally the new pilots that come direct to the F-15 ) When they learn, you can forget it with all Russian fighters. Even the R-77 is broken

[popcorn]

I've bit trying to flick through the radar sub-modes also but they don't appear to change anything . I must say, BVR could really do with some training mission modules, as a n00b I don't have a clue what I'm doing and often don't understand the manual either, or find it hard to match to the game. I'm struggling to even hit AI aircraft at the moment with SARH missiles.

 

Am I at least using these missiles right? See track. They don't seem to track at all. I achieve 1 hit in 5 attempts here.

R-27ET Attempt.trk

Edited July 1, 2013 by popcorn

[pepin1234]

my advise is take the FC2 and learn there first. Now is not a good moment to understand the russian missiles inside the FC3.

[popcorn]

I also can't seem to lock the R-27ETs using the BVR IRST mode (pressing O). I can however lock them via radar. That doesn't seem to match the manual.

[FLANKERATOR]

I also can't seem to lock the R-27ETs using the BVR IRST mode (pressing O). I can however lock them via radar. That doesn't seem to match the manual.

 

 

Hi popcorn,

 

EOS lacks vertical slewing at the moment which makes acquiring the target more challenging than it should be, but it will be addressed in future patches. Also range detection for EOS is very limited head on (hidden engine muzzle) so do not expect to see a head on target from far away especially if not on afterburner and this is normal for the IRST version that is simulated in FC.

 

Just try to keep in mind that FC3 is not perfect nor is the real world. Do not expect every missile to hit. All missiles seem to suffer from a slightly exaggerated vulnerability to chaff but this is common to all missiles, including AIM-120. R-27ET appears to be the most lethal missile because it tracks passively and efficiently when target is on afterburner. It remains relatively easy to evade providing you reduce your heat signature (burners off) and deploy flares. Missiles are still working if used correctly and with the right mindset. If you need help, make sure to be very accurate with your question as most of time it will come down to minor detail.

Edited July 1, 2013 by FLANKERATOR

[popcorn]

Hi Flankerator.

 

Should I be able to lock R-27ETs with radar?

 

How do I know when an active radar homer has self-lock?

[Kuky]

You can lock an aircraft with radar while R-27ET is selected, this doesn't mean the missile has locked onto target (as you won't see the "LA" cue) but the radar has it locked. Only as you get closer and missile itself acquires the target (missile seeker will be looking in direction of radar) then you can fire it and missile should track.

 

Keep in mind though, missiles in FC3 are still quite WIP and have bug (like high susceptibility to chaff)

[pepin1234]

to chaff but this is common to all missiles, including AIM-120.

 

Could you proof that please

 

I also can't seem to lock the R-27ETs using the BVR IRST mode (pressing O). I can however lock them via radar. That doesn't seem to match the manual.

 

Popcorn sometimes the Manual and the Video Training dont say everything. When you practice with the AI you will see the results are always the same, and the AI only Launch one single Missile.

 

When you Launch to a Human Pilot a bunch of of 5 R-27ER in one attack after some seconds you will expect some results but the really hard reality right now is that the F-15 will turn back leaving for you two Aim-120 been shooted at 25 km, a distance that give you few posibility to survival. You can dispense a tone of chaffs that the Aim-120 seem to be immune to everything, even immune to the game lag.

 

Dont try shoot the R-27ER at 50 km because he lose the energy.

At 40 the same. The R-27ET could be a good cart but Keep in mind the risks.

 

Forget all you read in internet about how fast and long range have the R-27. You will find in the DCS world encyclopedia that suddenly the R-27ER only have 3 match speed and the fantastic 70 km range that you see in the encyclopedia is a fantasy in some cases. This is only a PC game...

 

Thats why I say you the FC3 is not good idea for the new russians pilots at the moment

Edited July 1, 2013 by pepin1234

[popcorn]

You can lock an aircraft with radar while R-27ET is selected, this doesn't mean the missile has locked onto target (as you won't see the "LA" cue) but the radar has it locked. Only as you get closer and missile itself acquires the target (missile seeker will be looking in direction of radar) then you can fire it and missile should track.

 

Keep in mind though, missiles in FC3 are still quite WIP and have bug (like high susceptibility to chaff)

Ah, so once in range (15km from rear) I can lock R-27ET seeker via radar mode?

[popcorn]

 

 

 

Popcorn sometimes the Manual and the Video Training dont say everything. When you practice with the AI you will see the results are always the same, and the AI only Launch one single Missile.

 

When you Launch to a Human Pilot a bunch of of 5 R-27ER in one attack after some seconds you will expect some results but the really hard reality right now is that the F-15 will turn back leaving for you two Aim-120 been shooted at 25 km, a distance that give you few posibility to survival. You can dispense a tone of chaffs that the Aim-120 seem to be immune to everything, even immune to the game lag.

 

Dont try shoot the R-27ER at 50 km because he lose the energy.

At 40 the same. The R-27ET could be a good cart but Keep in mind the risks.

 

Forget all you read in internet about how fast and long range have the R-27. You will find in the DCS world encyclopedia that suddenly the R-27ER only have 3 match speed and the fantastic 70 km range that you see in the encyclopedia is a fantasy in some cases. This is only a PC game...

 

Thats why I say you the FC3 is not good idea for the new russians pilots at the moment

Hi pepin. The problem I'm having with the R-27ER isn't really range. I'm firing from 10-15km and the missile is often just flying past the target aircraft within about 50m or less and they (AI F-14s) aren't really maneuvering much. The missile just doesn't seem to know which way it's going. I'm trying to establish whether I'm bad or whether it's just a bad missile.

[*Rage*]

I beg to differ.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=103377

 

The Aim120 and R77 are not as badly affected as the R27R/ER.

 

It's not a bad missile once you learn it's strong and weak points.

Most importantly, it's semi active. I take it you already know that?

 

It's not a bad missile.

It's a bad understanding of said missile.

 

Due to less then optimal implementation of seeker heads by ED and countermeasures like Chaff the 27R and 27ER are quite easily spoofed.

Still, there quite usable.

(aim120, aim7 and R77 suffer from the same effects)

 

The -27R and ER are both effective missiles in their element. You just gotta practice how to use them.

[*Rage*]

Hi pepin. The problem I'm having with the R-27ER isn't really range. I'm firing from 10-15km and the missile is often just flying past the target aircraft within about 50m or less and they (AI F-14s) aren't really maneuvering much. The missile just doesn't seem to know which way it's going. I'm trying to establish whether I'm bad or whether it's just a bad missile.

 

Its the current implementation of chaff rejection logic. See my thread posted above.

 

There is however hope in Matts latest update re 1.2.5 changes.

[popcorn]

Overall I've found that the MiG-29S with 2 R-27ETs and 2 R-77s is more effective than an Su-33 with 6 R-27ERs and 2 R-27ETs. Oddly it works best when you use the R-27ETs first at long range and then use the R-77s at shorter range just before 10km.

[blkspade]

Could you proof that please

 

 

 

Popcorn sometimes the Manual and the Video Training dont say everything. When you practice with the AI you will see the results are always the same, and the AI only Launch one single Missile.

 

When you Launch to a Human Pilot a bunch of of 5 R-27ER in one attack after some seconds you will expect some results but the really hard reality right now is that the F-15 will turn back leaving for you two Aim-120 been shooted at 25 km, a distance that give you few posibility to survival. You can dispense a tone of chaffs that the Aim-120 seem to be immune to everything, even immune to the game lag.

 

Dont try shoot the R-27ER at 50 km because he lose the energy.

At 40 the same. The R-27ET could be a good cart but Keep in mind the risks.

 

Forget all you read in internet about how fast and long range have the R-27. You will find in the DCS world encyclopedia that suddenly the R-27ER only have 3 match speed and the fantastic 70 km range that you see in the encyclopedia is a fantasy in some cases. This is only a PC game...

 

Thats why I say you the FC3 is not good idea for the new russians pilots at the moment

 

This is far from accurate. There are ways to evade to 120 through a combination of chaff and maneuvers. The are some Russian drivers who pull this off successfully and give me a hell of a time in my attempts to kill them. If I go entirely defensive, I've officially given them my 6 to deploy an ET toward. The other reason F-15 pilots are proving more successful is that they are commonly both higher and faster which adds to the 120's kinematic performance. The catch 22 for the Russian pilot is being at altitude typically make them easier to kill.

[popcorn]

When using R-77s in BVR the lock circle always seems to stay bore-sighted rather than following the target. Is this correct?

[pepin1234]

Overall I've found that the MiG-29S with 2 R-27ETs and 2 R-77s is more effective than an Su-33 with 6 R-27ERs and 2 R-27ETs. Oddly it works best when you use the R-27ETs first at long range and then use the R-77s at shorter range just before 10km.

 

Well I was not enough clear before. I just wanted to say you overall what is going on. Yes ones of the bigs Problems with the R-27 is the chaffs effect. With the R-77 you can get a Little more succes at 15 km becuse in the middle of his travel this Missile is active. But I have said you before, the russian Missiles lose the track because the chaffs, even been shooting at 15 km and the R-77 is guided first by your Radar. that means even in this range you lose track by chaffs and even by notching. Is a shame but is like that now in our game. Some People want to say us that this is because the missiles AFM. Just open your eyes and see a little more there...

 

Honestly when you find somebody that say the magic words " all the Missiles going bad " this is simple not true and this persons dont really care about the Russian fighters.