AATQ-Unguided bombs.. UN-DOABLE!!!!

[WildBillKelsoe]

10 times now.. yes. 10 times I've flown that mission created by Sabre-TLA and constantly get a U. Be it hard deck violation, crashing the plane, you name it..

 

Just one thing: How am I supposed to engage the convoy when the tanks alone requires the 2 84's, the gun is used up on the first and second and third targets... Total pieces about 30+.. I have a full load of canon, 2 84's, 6 82's, and 2 97's. What am I doing wrong? Is there a logic behind attacking trucks with bombs? wouldn't that make use on harder targets?

 

Man, please give me a cheat on how to finish it!!! And IN TIME if you will... :mad:

[Purzel]

Why don´t you attack them with CBU-103/CBU-105..?

I don´t know the mission, but, if you can change your payload, set it to some CBU´s...

First stop the convoy with a GAU-8 gunrun, then do an CBU-attack, while they´re standing still...

[Supersheep]

Are you blaming DCS, the mission design or vis major?

[WildBillKelsoe]

Purzel, I'm loaded with specific weapons to be used on each target group. Sheep; vis major. My rig turns to a slide show with 87's deployment. ED should fix this among the P-51D canon stutter.

 

Winds are as follows:

zero AGL 3m/s hdg 074 deg

2000m AGL 3m/s hdg 074 deg

8000m AGL 3m/s hdg 066 deg

 

 

instructor mentions something about analysis of winds. If I'm correct about this, I should be on 070 degrees on the final. The A-10 is a pain in the ass just to release and climb back slowly to 8,000 and in such a restricted range (the SYPH range bounds converge towards the east). For wind LASTE entry, I punch in 074/10 (ft/sec). Is this why I'm missing?

Edited June 30, 2013 by WildBillKelsoe

[Sabre-TLA]

I'll have to check the mission again but there is one target where you can take out multiple vehicles with a single bomb drop. Try dropping it in the center of the target group.

 

Also you need to kill all targets so be very judicious with the cannon runs.

 

If you expend munitions too quickly you won't have enough left to finish the convoy.

[WildBillKelsoe]

I'll have to check the mission again but there is one target where you can take out multiple vehicles with a single bomb drop. Try dropping it in the center of the target group.

 

Also you need to kill all targets so be very judicious with the cannon runs.

 

If you expend munitions too quickly you won't have enough left to finish the convoy.

 

Saber, not to be rude, but is it possible to cut down on the convoy? The single target is supposedly a T-72 (target 2) and I set its elevation which is 120 ft.

 

Could you explain the part about the half distance miss in the opposite direction? If I roll out from 6000, that means I'm in the 2000 ft wind category or the 2000 + ground = 3+ 3 = 9 m/s = 27 ft/sec?

 

Also, the 84 is a large bomb, so I think you need to reassign the targets to each weapon and of course the truck triplets would make all use of the 84's.

 

Left with 6 82's, I can probably drop 2 on the tank in separate passes, then I'm left with 4 82's and 2 87's and the cannon to work the convoy. Can I put your mission in 1.1.1.1? I have both world 1.2.4 and 1.1.1.1. on the same machine.

 

Also please mention the time to finish the mission because the bingo could be reached longer.

 

I have your advanced, but should I get the basic to get bombs practiced in a less ranking score way?

[Sabre-TLA]

I just replayed the mission (and forgot how much fun it was):)

 

You can read about my failure with the Mk-84s below but the mission can still succeed if you kill all the targets. You can try opening it in 1.1.1.1 but I think there were significant changes especially to the headings so I expect it will fail.

 

I found in testing there is sufficient fuel and time to complete the mission but you do need to be quick about acquiring the targets and putting metal to meat. No sightseeing on this mission.

 

The Basic Flight Training Qualification Campaign does not cover weapons. It's all about basic maneuvers, start-up, shutdown, takeoffs, landings, navigation, flying formation, and low level flight.

 

For this Advance Aircraft Training Qualification mission success is driven by 2 things:

A) You land and shutdown successfully

B) You kill all the targets at WP5, WP6, WP7 and WP8 - easier said than done.

 

Judicious use of munitions is the key. Single bomb for multiple targets and just a short 3 second burst with the gun if possible.

 

At WP5 you can usually take out two trucks with one Mk-82 if you drop it dead center between the closest ones. I find rolling in with the target at 10 o'clock makes it easy to line up and the more vertical you are the more accurate you will be. I chopped throttle and popped the speed brakes in the dive to give me a steadier aiming platform. Just make sure you leave enough altitude that you don't break the 500' range hard deck.

 

In my test the Mk-84's on CCRP both missed as well, even from a straight level flight so you may need to do some adjustment for wind. Not sure if the attack direction helps (still have to test that) but dropping with or against the wind instead of across it may give you a better fall line. I recall that CCRP always targets the SPI location for aiming so make sure you have SPI properly set on the target.

 

If you miss with both Mk-84s you can use any remaining Mk-82s on the tank including the gun but remember if you use up all your munitions early then killing the convoy becomes very difficult before you go winchester.

 

In my test today I used up the Mk-82s and Mk-84s and ended up having to strafe the targets at WP7.

 

For the convoy at WP8 try and attack in the same direction as the convoy is headed and at a good height (5K or higher). This gives a good dispersal pattern to the CBU-87s and will usually kill a few of the soft targets in the convoy. I drop individual bombs (not in pairs) so I can correct on the next pass and target another large grouping of targets.

 

I love seeing the targets scatter like cockroaches when some of them get hit.

 

Use the gun on any remaining targets and short controlled bursts will usually do the job (I think most of the targets take damage from the CBU initially so even tanks were only a few short bursts).

 

Give yourself sufficient space to properly line up when re-engaging but not so much that you burn fuel and time. You also have to watch that you don't stray outside the range (I keep an eye on the river to the north and the towns to the south). Plus don't forget about your wingman. I recall having a mid-air with him at one point in testing this mission.

 

Hopefully this helps. I'll post some videos to our channel when I get a chance.

 

We are working on a practice package like we did for the Basic Flight Training Qualification Campaign that will be free to customers of this campaign. The practice package will provide a single mission for each qualification mission with in-air starts just prior to the IP so you can get right into the action quickly and perfect your technique.

 

Once you are confident with the practice missions you should be able to pass the qualification missions.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Sabre-TLA

[SUBS17]

Could the hard deck please be lowered to 100ft or 50ft because you have to be quite close to kill a tank with the gun? BTW did you succeed in killing all tgts and rtb Sabre?

[WildBillKelsoe]

I just replayed the mission (and forgot how much fun it was):)

 

You can read about my failure with the Mk-84s below but the mission can still succeed if you kill all the targets. You can try opening it in 1.1.1.1 but I think there were significant changes especially to the headings so I expect it will fail.

 

I found in testing there is sufficient fuel and time to complete the mission but you do need to be quick about acquiring the targets and putting metal to meat. No sightseeing on this mission.

 

The Basic Flight Training Qualification Campaign does not cover weapons. It's all about basic maneuvers, start-up, shutdown, takeoffs, landings, navigation, flying formation, and low level flight.

 

For this Advance Aircraft Training Qualification mission success is driven by 2 things:

A) You land and shutdown successfully

B) You kill all the targets at WP5, WP6, WP7 and WP8 - easier said than done.

 

Judicious use of munitions is the key. Single bomb for multiple targets and just a short 3 second burst with the gun if possible.

 

At WP5 you can usually take out two trucks with one Mk-82 if you drop it dead center between the closest ones. I find rolling in with the target at 10 o'clock makes it easy to line up and the more vertical you are the more accurate you will be. I chopped throttle and popped the speed brakes in the dive to give me a steadier aiming platform. Just make sure you leave enough altitude that you don't break the 500' range hard deck.

 

In my test the Mk-84's on CCRP both missed as well, even from a straight level flight so you may need to do some adjustment for wind. Not sure if the attack direction helps (still have to test that) but dropping with or against the wind instead of across it may give you a better fall line. I recall that CCRP always targets the SPI location for aiming so make sure you have SPI properly set on the target.

 

If you miss with both Mk-84s you can use any remaining Mk-82s on the tank including the gun but remember if you use up all your munitions early then killing the convoy becomes very difficult before you go winchester.

 

In my test today I used up the Mk-82s and Mk-84s and ended up having to strafe the targets at WP7.

 

For the convoy at WP8 try and attack in the same direction as the convoy is headed and at a good height (5K or higher). This gives a good dispersal pattern to the CBU-87s and will usually kill a few of the soft targets in the convoy. I drop individual bombs (not in pairs) so I can correct on the next pass and target another large grouping of targets.

 

I love seeing the targets scatter like cockroaches when some of them get hit.

 

Use the gun on any remaining targets and short controlled bursts will usually do the job (I think most of the targets take damage from the CBU initially so even tanks were only a few short bursts).

 

Give yourself sufficient space to properly line up when re-engaging but not so much that you burn fuel and time. You also have to watch that you don't stray outside the range (I keep an eye on the river to the north and the towns to the south). Plus don't forget about your wingman. I recall having a mid-air with him at one point in testing this mission.

 

Hopefully this helps. I'll post some videos to our channel when I get a chance.

 

We are working on a practice package like we did for the Basic Flight Training Qualification Campaign that will be free to customers of this campaign. The practice package will provide a single mission for each qualification mission with in-air starts just prior to the IP so you can get right into the action quickly and perfect your technique.

 

Once you are confident with the practice missions you should be able to pass the qualification missions.

 

Sabre, you mention killing all targets but the directive was to use the assigned weapons to each target. I bet plucking a T-72 with a pair of 82's is aerodynamically more prudent than a single 84, just to make use of its blast radius (which is huge) on them trucks.

 

The issue here being the nominal speed to get to the target area (and I welcome an air start mission for this on your part). The trucks at 5 must be destroyed with 82's in CCIP, the tank in 6 with CCRP and 84's, trucks at 7 and convoy at 8 with the remaining weapons.

 

Also, there is an empty pylon (I think the left wing), and since we are practicing unguided weapons, I think we should fill that station with rockets.

 

 

Could the hard deck please be lowered to 100ft or 50ft because you have to be quite close to kill a tank with the gun? BTW did you succeed in killing all tgts and rtb Sabre?

 

SUBS17, I think the hard deck is more than sufficient to conduct strafing runs but the hard bit is to go up again to 8,000 and re-engage.

 

The convoy seems to be moving south, but the range design looks like a funnel that tapers east and you're practically sandwiched in the northern area. Winds are coming northeast, totally away from the convoy.

 

Sabre did mention something useful in that strafing or attacking the convoy makes them scatter and some concentration of vehicles starts. What is the ideal 87 settings for HOF/RPM to get such concentration? I'll test.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Sabre, here is a quick track for demonstrating my how I killed 1 2 and 3 within 15 mins (but also lost most my ammo in the process). Sorry I removed your trigs and zones.

 

My take on the tank (2) is that it's a tank, I think the gun is more appropriate.

Clearly I would get a U but just to get you thinking.

[Sabre-TLA]

Could the hard deck please be lowered to 100ft or 50ft because you have to be quite close to kill a tank with the gun? BTW did you succeed in killing all tgts and rtb Sabre?

 

Yes at least once (we don't release a mission unless I can pass it). However with all the patches to the game it's difficult to know if any single change has tweaked the mission outside of success parameters.

 

That's why we designed it so that as long as all the targets are killed you can pass. Our reasoning is that with so many targets, you have to kill at least some of them with the bombs.

 

Not ideal and probably not per USAF spec but it makes for a challenging mission.

 

I did some more testing tonight and managed to take out the first 2 trucks at WP5 with one

Mk-82 and then managed to get the tank at WP6 with a Mk-84 - not a direct hit but close enough that it killed the target. I'll post videos to our channel as soon as I can.

 

Personally I found the CCRP mode the most challenging to get a successful hit close to the target. You have to be very steady through the release point with minimal speed changes.

Higher altitude also effects accuracy. I'll test with dropping a pair of Mk-84s and see if that can eliminate the tank.

 

With the CBUs and the gun that should be sufficient to eliminate the convoy. Having an extra Mk-82 or Mk-84 certainly helps.

 

We hope to have the practice mission set released in the next week or so. It's been delayed due to another project but we hope to announce that soon too.

[Sabre-TLA]

Sabre, you mention killing all targets but the directive was to use the assigned weapons to each target. I bet plucking a T-72 with a pair of 82's is aerodynamically more prudent than a single 84, just to make use of its blast radius (which is huge) on them trucks.

 

The issue here being the nominal speed to get to the target area (and I welcome an air start mission for this on your part). The trucks at 5 must be destroyed with 82's in CCIP, the tank in 6 with CCRP and 84's, trucks at 7 and convoy at 8 with the remaining weapons.

 

Also, there is an empty pylon (I think the left wing), and since we are practicing unguided weapons, I think we should fill that station with rockets.

 

Unfortunately adding rockets would put us over the weight limit so we would have to reduce fuel which would reduce mission time and then we would probably have to eliminate some targets.

 

My intent with these missions is that they are qualification missions so personally I think they should be hard to pass. Are they too hard? That's a judgement call and certainly if lots of users can't pass this mission then we could redesign it to make it easier.

 

It's a tough balance between playability and challenge. In the BFT campaign we leaned towards playability. In the Advanced campaign more towards challenge. In the final Tactical campaign we want to balance both and make it as realistic as possible based on the research we have been doing but also playable so user's won't get frustrated.

 

In the end if I can't pass it, it won't get released until I can.

[SUBS17]

It was mentioned that the load out for that mission on another thread was unrealistically heavy. IMO you want the right balance to get the player through the campaign so maybe a combination of reducing the load to a realistic load and number of tgts lowered so that it is 1 tgt per bomb or something.

[Sabre-TLA]

As mentioned in that other thread, the mission editor won't let you exceed takeoff weight but it does allow for unrealistic load out combinations.

 

I've done some digging and found a reliable reference that lists actual load out configs for a number of aircraft.

 

From what I can tell this validates that the current mission load out is not per spec as originally designed.

 

I'll retest the mission with a realistic load out and see if I can still keep it playable within the current set of parameters. I'll release an update once that testing is completed.

[Sabre-TLA]

Based on my research, here are the choices for unguided bomb loadouts (I've removed the missile and rocket loadouts from the list):

 

MK82 Loadouts

MK82 x 4

MK82 x 6

AIM9 x 2 MK82 x 8

AIM9 x 2 MK82 x 10

AIM9 x 2 MK82 x 12

AIM9 x 2 MK82 x 16

 

MK84 Loadouts

AIM9 x 2 MK84 x 2

AIM9 x 2 MK84 x 4

 

MK82AIR Loadouts

AIM9 x 2 MK82AIR x 4

AIM9 x 2 MK82AIR x 6

AIM9 x 2 MK82AIR x 8

AIM9 x 2 MK82AIR x 10

AIM9 x 2 MK82AIR x 12

 

CBU87 Loadouts

AIM9 x 2 CBU87 x 2

AIM9 x 2 CBU87 x 6

AIM9 x 2 CBU87 x 9

AIM9 x 2 CBU87 x 2 MK82 x 4

 

MK20 Loadouts

AIM9 x 2 MK20 x 4

AIM9 x 2 MK20 x 6

AIM9 x 2 MK20 x 8

AIM9 x 2 MK20 x 12

AIM9 x 2 MK20 x 20

 

The only realistic mix with CBU87s is with only 4 MK82s. Not enough to complete the mission IMHO. I'll try the mission with 16 then 12 MK82s and see how that works. It doesn't appear the MK20s are in DCS as they don't show up in the loadout screen in the ME.

[WildBillKelsoe]

The only realistic mix with CBU87s is with only 4 MK82s. Not enough to complete the mission IMHO. I'll try the mission with 16 then 12 MK82s and see how that works. It doesn't appear the MK20s are in DCS as they don't show up in the loadout screen in the ME.

 

Sabre, I suggest you use a realistic load and reduce the number of targets or at least make a tighter grouping on the trucks. If the three trucks are within 20-35 feet, I can take them out with one, properly aimed 82. The rest of the convoy can be eliminated with the gun and CBU's, but only if reduced in number. Now a half second to a full second to a one and half second burst of the GAU-8 would spit 70-150 rounds, so I guess we have about 10 targets on the convoy with the gun (preferably tanks), and the 87's could be used on soft targets within a 200 meter footprint, and that would suggest a column of 10 vehicles. The remaining 87 could be used to finish off targets.

 

Do you have any plans for P-51D or UH-1H? I'd love to see your work on them too.

Edited July 3, 2013 by WildBillKelsoe
meters, not ft. 20-35 meters.

[SUBS17]

Mk20s are only available for the A-10A not the C in DCS World.:doh:

 

BTW CBU87s are quite useless(even against trucks) for ideal anti-armour my advice is use CBU97s.:thumbup: If used correctly you can get 5 out of 10 kills in one pass. In some missions I can in one flight destroy 40 vehicles so long as I have the right load. With iron bombs this list of kills is greatly reduced also without a hard deck the gun can get more kills against armoured vehicles. IMO you have to be quite close to kill a T72 with the gun and it takes a lot of rounds fired against the rear armour.

[Sabre-TLA]

Thanks for the input. I watched some video of the CBU-97's. I think they will do a heck of a job on the convoy.

 

So if we go with this loadout and combine the truck targets closer together we could end up with a realistic playable mission.

 

AIM9 x 2 CBU-97 x 2 MK82 x 4

 

1 MK82 for the first target, 2 for the tank and 1 more for the 3rd with CBUs and GUNs for the convoy.

 

I'll configure that and test it this weekend. If it plays well then I'll post an update to the user files section.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Thanks for the input. I watched some video of the CBU-97's. I think they will do a heck of a job on the convoy.

 

So if we go with this loadout and combine the truck targets closer together we could end up with a realistic playable mission.

 

AIM9 x 2 CBU-97 x 2 MK82 x 4

 

1 MK82 for the first target, 2 for the tank and 1 more for the 3rd with CBUs and GUNs for the convoy.

 

I'll configure that and test it this weekend. If it plays well then I'll post an update to the user files section.

 

Please do Sabre. Thank you for the support. Cheers.

[SUBS17]

That's a good loadout.:thumbup:

 

CBU97s are very good for killing tanks.

[Sabre-TLA]

I've updated the AAT08 Unguided Bombs mission as discussed and made a few other updates to other missions in the Campaign. It should be posted to the User Files section once the moderator approves it. Both Part A and Part B have been updated so check for version 1.1.

 

I've also completed the AAT Practice Mission package that matches the updates to version 1.1 of the campaign. It should be posted to the User Files section once the moderator approves it.

 

I hope to post videos of the practice missions soon. Let me know if you encounter any problems with the updated missions.

 

Thanks.

[WildBillKelsoe]

thanks Sabre! will update thread with any bugs and results of testing. Cheers!