Level Flight Trim

[Tetra]

Hi guys,

 

Finally got a hold of the A10 in the sale and having a ton of fun running the tutorials and slowly trying to absorb everything. This is my first contact with a jet sim and until this point I had only ever flown the KA-50 so my relationship with trimming is quite well established, even if its methods are somewhat different in the shark.

 

Trouble I am having is a very fundamental one, just simply getting the A-10 to maintain a completely level flight profile at a given speed. I have the trimmer mapped to the hat of the X52 but no matter what I try I can't seem to prevent the climb/dive needle from diverting from 0 at any chance it gets.

 

I set the throttle, get the stick centred and then try slowly holding the trim hat until the nose levels out then release but this usually results in it slipping past 0 climb/dive and into a dive & if I correct the opposite way I end up in a climb. I also tried tapping the trimmer gently forward in as small an increment as I can to get it to level but again, it will never sit at 0, I am constantly either in some amount of climb or dive. I guess part of the problem is as the trim moves up or down so does the airspeed which results in overshoot in either direction.

 

Anybody got any tips as to how to get the A-10 to literally stay put at a complete level attitude without having to constantly manage the stick in tiny movements to keep her there? Do I need to be micro managing the throttle at the same time while I trim to get level flight? Huge thanks for any pointers on this. (just to add to this I am trying this with all the rails empty, just because I figured carrying ordinance might make the jet unbalanced and make things even harder).

[cichlidfan]

The key is a very light touch on the trim hat. If you alter the throttle settings at all then you must re-trim.

[xxJohnxx]

Hi,

 

You are making one basic misstake:

You wrote that you keep the stick centered, and then press the trim to get a climb rate of 0. However, that is rather difficult.

 

The better approach to trimming (and this is also how it is done in RL, where it is easier) is to get a climb rate of 0 by moving the stick off center. Once you get that climb rate of 0, just apply trim in short intervals and move the stick a little bit closer to the center. You so to say, trim the force away.

[alexej21]

I recommend you to use autopilot as much as possible.

 

Regarding the level flight.

 

If you trim and adjust the pitch even a little then this affects your speed. Change of speed will change the amount of lift. Change of lift puts you to dive or climb.

 

=> level flight needs the constact check and adjustment of speed and pitch.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

The purpose of trimming isn't to allow the plane to fly hands off, it's just to remove the unwanted force you'd need to apply to the stick otherwise. You should re-trim for speed, attitude and configuration changes. John describes the method for doing this well.

 

There's no need to micro manage the throttle

[alexej21]

The purpose of trimming isn't to allow the plane to fly hands off, it's just to remove the unwanted force you'd need to apply to the stick otherwise. You should re-trim for speed, attitude and configuration changes. John describes the method for doing this well.

 

There's no need to micro manage the throttle

 

Agree.

 

But don't forget that ANY change of the pitch means change of the speed -> change of the lift.

 

If you trim the pitch then after a while (speed will be affected) you will need to trim it again.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Agree.

 

But don't forget that ANY change of the pitch means change of the speed -> change of the lift.

 

If you trim the pitch then after a while (speed will be affected) you will need to trim it again.

 

Which is why I said trim for attitude changes :smilewink:

[alexej21]

Agree again :smilewink:

[Tetra]

Huge thanks for all the input guys, will give this another go today and see if I can put it in to practice. Thanks again!

[Hamblue]

It's more something that becomes second nature over time.

Right now you're fighting it because it's new. At some point you will not know you're even doing it.

[Dudester22]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I also have a question about trim and it is on the same lines. I have recently tried refueling using air to air, but for the life of me I cannot hold the plane still. I gave up in the end because while I can hold it reasonably still, I feel an air to air refuel requires you to hold it still and also hold it right on the dot. I also have a Saitek x52 and I read somewhere that you have to change some files in the game to get it to work properly. Without doing this I read that the Saitek x52 just doesn't hold in trim like it's supposed to do.

[HugePanic]

i guess you will see the phugoid of the A-10 in this case.

[Dudester22]

i guess you will see the phugoid of the A-10 in this case.

 

It's not as dramatic as that for me, but the trimming for me isn't good enough with the Saitek x 52, and it just makes an air to air refuel so much harder. I know some people can do it, but I tried for 4 hours solid and no joy. While I was near enough I just couldn't get it to latch on.

 

What's trim like on the Warthog Hotas?

Edited June 23, 2013 by Dudester22

[Hamblue]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I also have a question about trim and it is on the same lines. I have recently tried refueling using air to air, but for the life of me I cannot hold the plane still. I gave up in the end because while I can hold it reasonably still, I feel an air to air refuel requires you to hold it still and also hold it right on the dot. I also have a Saitek x52 and I read somewhere that you have to change some files in the game to get it to work properly. Without doing this I read that the Saitek x52 just doesn't hold in trim like it's supposed to do.

 

The secret of air to air is to tune the axis of the joystick with a curvature of about 25. That cuts back on the constant movement you make while trying to connect.

[NhiTrac]

Try adding a curve of around 20 to your stick's X, Y axis in the settings. I found this helped tremendously for me as it made it less twitchy though I am flying on the TMWH.

 

The other thing to do is to focus on the tanker's wings/body in relation to a point on your canopy rather than chasing the boom.

 

Re trimming on the TMWH, works a treat!

[Dudester22]

Without sounding a bit thick how do I change the curvature of my Y and X on the stick? I am new to flight Sims and while I am picking it up quite quickly these things are new to me.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Dudester22

[Hamblue]

Go to options then controls. You'll see assign axis. When you click on the assigned axis the Axis Tune button will be an option.

[Dudester22]

Go to options then controls. You'll see assign axis. When you click on the assigned axis the Axis Tune button will be an option.

 

The number 25 seems best setting for Saitek X52 to me, but just one more question about trimming if someone could answer. I have noticed that whenever I start a mission, be it in the air or from the ramp, that A10 always turns to the right and I have to slightly trim it back to the left. Can someone tell me if this is normal or do I have to change another axis or something?

[ptako]

One more thing. If you have an X52 you can make trimming more accurate.

Instead of just binding keys to hat try go to Saitek's profile editor and map trimming to hat as advanced command.

I have it binded like on below image:

 

 

It works like a charm. When you push a hat for a short period - you'll get a single, very small change in trimmer setting. When you hold it longer, it will start to repeat sending keystrokes and you'll get larger change in trimmer.

[aaron886]

Which is why I said trim for attitude changes :smilewink:

 

Not to "pile on," (as this thread has really taken its course,) but this is not 100% correct. You are not trimming for attitude changes, you are still trimming for airspeed changes that will result from your attitude change.

 

In fact the most accurate answer here is that you are re-trimming for angle of attack, not airspeed or attitude. In practical terms, however, we trim for airspeed. Cheers! :beer:

[NhiTrac]

The number 25 seems best setting for Saitek X52 to me, but just one more question about trimming if someone could answer. I have noticed that whenever I start a mission, be it in the air or from the ramp, that A10 always turns to the right and I have to slightly trim it back to the left. Can someone tell me if this is normal or do I have to change another axis or something?

 

Reason being is because your plane has no trim on start up. The stick is dead centre and because of slight uneven weight distribution, you'll drift to whichever side is heavier. To correct it, just trim opposite a few clicks once you're up and level. Like others have said it'll become second nature once you have more flight time.

 

Ps try this experiment. Manually load your weapons just on the left wing with the right empty. You 'should' drift to the left once airborne.

 

Hope that helps.

[Reaper_Mav]

Agree.

 

But don't forget that ANY change of the pitch means change of the speed -> change of the lift.

 

If you trim the pitch then after a while (speed will be affected) you will need to trim it again.

 

Which is why I said trim for attitude changes :smilewink:

 

Agreed as wel! But isn't is better to adjust pitch and trim to speed rather than speed to pitch?

 

Would'nt you rather fly a fixed speed and trim the aircraft according that? Therefore speed directly affects lift and thus pitch.

 

Lastly, let's not forget fuel burn! :-)

 

Anyway, back to the topic, as mentioned John tells the story!

[PeterP]

Some additional info:

 

While reading through this posts it seems that some don't really know what happens in terms of stick force and position in the Real A-10 when you operate the trim-hat.

 

This video should give you the needed info :

 

 

...and now you will (maybe) understand why Trim in a real aircraft is a no-brainer.

 

You push the stick to the position of your wished flightpath , if the force is in-convenient to hold over a longer time and/or you want to fly hands-off:

than you trim to get the controlls in a state where you don't have to apply a force with your hand to hold it in position - of course you can mix this and trim already while moving..and so on.

 

This gets harder without FFB - and it is a little more guesswork/try'n'error - but for this case we have the 'trim-diamond' visible in the control-indicator (RCtrl-Enter) - and we have to accomplish visually what we would normally feel with the stick-hand.

Edited June 24, 2013 by PeterP

[OzStriker]

The above video will probably cause confusion for those without force feedback sticks.

 

Without force feedback simply trim out any constant stick input that you find yourself using.

 

You should be trimming frequently - every time your scan moves away from the HUD, the more in trim you are the closer you will be to your intended attitude when you return.

[HugePanic]

With an FFB stick hardly do any trimming in the A-10. It is simply not necessary when using the autopilot. For tanker-refuelling I use the trimmer.