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Rudder pedals. They are really necessary?


GriffonBR
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Well, after some problems during the take-off and even though in the dogfights, I realized how dificult is to control the Pony with a twist rudder (Sidewinder FF2).

Don´t matter how much force I use, it seems that the Stang just shakes without control!!!

 

Now here is my question, do you agree that for a better simulation expirience on DCS Mustang I have to invest in a Rudder Pedals? A basic model from Saitek is enough?

 

Thanks

Intel 8700K@4.7ghz(all cores) / 32Gb DDR4 /WD Black SN750 Heatsink 500gb (DCS Only) / MSI GeForce RTX 2070 GAMING Z 8G / Windows 10 PRO / VPC WarBRD Base + Warthog Stick + Foxx Mount / Thrustmaster TPR pedals / Thustmaster MFD / Thrustmaster Warthog throttle + Monstertech chair mount

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Well, after some problems during the take-off and even though in the dogfights, I realized how dificult is to control the Pony with a twist rudder (Sidewinder FF2).

Don´t matter how much force I use, it seems that the Stang just shakes without control!!!

 

Now here is my question, do you agree that for a better simulation expirience on DCS Mustang I have to invest in a Rudder Pedals? A basic model from Saitek is enough?

 

Thanks

 

I found having pedals made the experience much more controllable for me

 

I wouldnt want to fly without pedals now

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Well, I´ve spent less than 2 hours with the Stang, I´ll try to change some settings for the rudder axis before I buy a set rudder pedals.

 

By the way, which one is the most recomendable for DCS Series?

Intel 8700K@4.7ghz(all cores) / 32Gb DDR4 /WD Black SN750 Heatsink 500gb (DCS Only) / MSI GeForce RTX 2070 GAMING Z 8G / Windows 10 PRO / VPC WarBRD Base + Warthog Stick + Foxx Mount / Thrustmaster TPR pedals / Thustmaster MFD / Thrustmaster Warthog throttle + Monstertech chair mount

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I found having pedals made the experience much more controllable for me

 

I wouldnt want to fly without pedals now

 

+1.. the level of fine control is much better. Twist sticks are ok for take-off and semi-ok for using rudder in the same direction as the turn but really awkward (I found) for trying to use opposite rudder to the direction of the turn being made.

 

I use the Saitek pedals myself - no complaints at all so far.

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The P-51 like most straight wing aircraft will get pre-stall buffet if you pull back and increase angle of attack enough. What the rudder is important for is keeping the 'ball' centred to ensure equal lift from both wings; this improves turn performance and reduces the chance of one wing dropping.

 

If you can manage this with a twist grip, pedals may not be necessary. That said, I wouldn't do without them now.

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A rudder is a rudder and it will turn when twisted or pushed, no difference what you use

 

Bullshit, sir! There are several large differences, indeed. I'll only point out one: throw. Pedals have several times as much throw as a twisty stick's twist, which means several times as much potential precision (and each error you make with pedals is a much smaller percentage of error than the same error made with twist).

 

I've said it often before, and I'm annoyed that I have to say it again: there's a damn good reason why real aircraft all use pedals and not twisty sticks. (One or two highly-automated oddballs notwithstanding.) I myself will not fly sims without pedals, and have felt that way since my very first time at the controls of a real airplane.

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Rudder pedals. They are really necessary?

 

To make it short (before others start to 'bullshitting' each other):

Yes they are!

Point

 

We have more than 50 threads about it in the input-section . Start a forum-search.

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As for the question of which pedals are the best to buy--I'm afraid I can't answer that one, but I can tell you to avoid a couple:

 

CH and Logitech pedals are both set much closer together than are those on real fighters, and are instead approximately of distance found on civilian aircraft such as the Cessna 152 and airliners.

 

There's a reason, you see, why all real fighters (all of the hundreds I've seen, anyway) from any era have wide-set pedals; it's the same reason a man stands with his feet apart when expecting to be shoved, or when attempting to maintain balance. A wide base improves stability, and in an aircraft, this wide spacing of pedals improves potential precision. In short, in a fighter, one wants a "fighter's stance" and not a "ballerina's stance."

 

Even the old Great War kites had their rudder bar sized in such a manner that they placed one's feet that far apart, like modern ones. F/A-18, F-16, F-15, A-10, P-51, P-38, Me-109, P-39, P-47, SPAD S.XIII, Fokker Dr.I, Nieuport C.17, the list goes on and on and on. I've never seen a real fighter from any era which had pedals close together like the CH pedals.

 

(If I had to buy a set of pedals right now for under $400 US, I'd go with Saitek--but I haven't used 'em, so I don't know first-hand how their quality is.)

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Done, gentleman, I ordered a CH model on Ebay, now I have to pray for nobody here in Brazil loot the Post Office because of those protest and riots lol

 

Thanks for the help one more time.:thumbup:

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Intel 8700K@4.7ghz(all cores) / 32Gb DDR4 /WD Black SN750 Heatsink 500gb (DCS Only) / MSI GeForce RTX 2070 GAMING Z 8G / Windows 10 PRO / VPC WarBRD Base + Warthog Stick + Foxx Mount / Thrustmaster TPR pedals / Thustmaster MFD / Thrustmaster Warthog throttle + Monstertech chair mount

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Done, gentleman, I ordered a CH model on Ebay, now I have to pray for nobody here in Brazil loot the Post Office because of those protest and riots lol

 

Thanks for the help one more time.thumbup.gif

 

 

First: Good choice for getting rudders at all!

 

 

...but, (Damn - too late):

 

>>> UH-1H without rudder pedals?

 

 

recommend a purchase of CH pro rudder pedals.
Had them before the saitek - -CH rudders are too narrow . - this ads to much strain to your legs during helicopter long-runs (keep in mind: holding them centred for longer periods is not common in the Huey) and isn't usable at all when you will sometime change to a center-stick config .

 

(some info about my experience: I came from (almost) helicopter-only flying in FSX to the BlackShark some many moons ago)

True
Well, above quote are made in a thread about the Huey - but the comment about the strain is also true for the P-51D. - as there are no 'fancy' flight stabilisation helpers like in other jets - and you have to 'work' them almost every-time you change your flightpath in the P-51D.

 

Conclusion: I would never buy a suit that doesn't 'fits' me (take this literally) - regardless how much cheaper it is or how good it is looking.


Edited by PeterP

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FWIW, I've never had problems with the CH pedals, even after a long time (and I fly more WWI hours than anything, so rudder use is near-constant!). For the helos, I've never had much use for the rudders-don't-stick-with-trim thing, so I do indeed end up with them centered most of the time, and although the Mustang does require a lot of rudder work, it almost never requires very much rudder deflection.

Black Shark, Harrier, and Hornet pilot

Many Words - Serial Fiction | Ka-50 Employment Guide | Ka-50 Avionics Cheat Sheet | Multiplayer Shooting Range Mission

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you will not be disappointed.

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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there's a damn good reason why real aircraft all use pedals and not twisty sticks.

Could it be that rudder pedals were standardised before twist-sticks were invented :)

 

The wide pedals (although not necessary for gaming) helped with the 'torque' factor on real aircraft. This of course depends on the mechanical linkages.

 

For gaming it depends on the accuracy of your sensors, so narrow pedals would be just as good. A lot of civvy aircraft have annoyingly narrow pedal spacing, such that I pity any BigFoot pilot.

 

As for Pedals-vs-Twisty's.. I'd say pedals, for the basic reason that you must seperate your control 'linkages' for proper co-ordination. For example - try keep a twisty rudder position constant while moving the x/y axis all over the place... it's nearly impossible.

 

There are also occasions (you won't find this in DCS to much) that rudder control can almost replace the other 2 primary surface controls, but you'll need wide pedals to do this with greater controllability

: - )

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Here is another differentiate look at it in general.

 

There is a good reason for everything,

there is a reason for the twist stick in front of a desktop. and there is a reason to have it incockpit.

 

Please don't make the failure to think it's the same. - no it isn't.

 

Please use what's between your ears to get behind this reason why it's done how it is and couldn't be always translated to other input devices that you are using.

 

This include the throw of your stick and how accurate you can do with your wrist what a real pilot does with his arm - also think about the missing feedback - here is a reminder:Have a look to get a idea what you are missing: ...

 

Maybe this thread will give you some thoughts :

Why doesn't elevator trim wheel move in real time?

 

and now lets get back to rudders - but in a helicopter:Can we have this little Huey feature in our BS?

 

see - it's really difficult to say "I use/have a realistic Simulation".


Edited by PeterP

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Bullshit, sir! There are several large differences, indeed. I'll only point out one: throw. Pedals have several times as much throw as a twisty stick's twist, which means several times as much potential precision (and each error you make with pedals is a much smaller percentage of error than the same error made with twist).

 

I've said it often before, and I'm annoyed that I have to say it again: there's a damn good reason why real aircraft all use pedals and not twisty sticks. (One or two highly-automated oddballs notwithstanding.) I myself will not fly sims without pedals, and have felt that way since my very first time at the controls of a real airplane.

 

what are you smoking sir?

 

did you read my post before throwing me the "bullshit" line? What don't you understand about a rudder will deflect regardless of what device you use?

 

now you dont get the real pilot deal do you. Rudders are used because of the force required in a real airplane , could you imagine flying a DC3 with a twist or trying to keep a mustang straight with a twist stick ROFL! snap out of it we are not in the real world!!

 

The op is having problems with stalling and not rudder input anyway. I have absolutely no problem keeping the ball centered and maintaining balanced turns and either will the OP if puts in the time to learn to fly it

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did you read my post before throwing me the "bullshit" line? What don't you understand about a rudder will deflect regardless of what device you use?

 

You said "No difference what you use," and that's the erroneous statement I object to. There are, as I pointed out, several large differences. I've said enough ... more than enough. Anyone who cares can figure the rest out.

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You said "No difference what you use," and that's the erroneous statement I object to. There are, as I pointed out, several large differences. I've said enough ... more than enough. Anyone who cares can figure the rest out.

 

yes it doesn't matter what you use the rudder will deflect, what dont you understand?

 

your comment regarding sim and real world is completely misguided. We do NOT have the force feedback of real world hence a twist will suffice.

 

Now wether you use a stick or pedals I can promise you that there is some kid out there using an xbox controller that will whip your ass in multi play. You get it now lol?

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what are you smoking sir?

 

did you read my post before throwing me the "bullshit" line? What don't you understand about a rudder will deflect regardless of what device you use?

 

now you dont get the real pilot deal do you. Rudders are used because of the force required in a real airplane , could you imagine flying a DC3 with a twist or trying to keep a mustang straight with a twist stick ROFL! snap out of it we are not in the real world!!

 

The op is having problems with stalling and not rudder input anyway. I have absolutely no problem keeping the ball centered and maintaining balanced turns and either will the OP if puts in the time to learn to fly it

 

By your logic, fly by wire planes don't need rudder pedals then? After all, they don't need 40 pounds to push the pedals.... but we still got pedals instead of twist sticks...

 

Twist may suffice, but the throw of the rudder pedals will improve your accuracy.... I'm sure a few talented players using an xb360 controller can school me in the p-51, but there will always be greater number of rudder pedal users to school those players...

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Not sure simple tradition wouldn't be a good enough explanation of why FBW planes still have pedals.

Airliners have gone from 'steering wheels' to sidesticks because they're actually a more precise way to collect input, and there's no real reason why modern cars couldn't also go to strain sensing sidesticks/joysticks - except that people wouldn't accept them 'because cars have steering wheels'.

I suspect for a FBW system, a strain-sensing device in 3 degrees of 'freedom' would with a bit of use end up being just as / more precise than a stick and pedals... but you've got to get people to accept the idea irst.

 

Again, to the # good flyers with twist grips vs with pedals.

 

As one of the things that people tend to get once they become serious about Flight sims is a set of pedals - because they want realism - your statement simply could be interpreted as the serious simmers tend to be better than the casual ones.


Edited by Weta43

Cheers.

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Airliners have gone from 'steering wheels' to sidesticks

 

I suspect for a FBW system, a strain-sensing device in 3 degrees of 'freedom' would with a bit of use end up being just as / more precise than a stick and pedals...

 

Note that all of these FBW aircraft which use things like force-sensing and/or short-throw sidesticks (and the Predator UAV, which, IIRC, does give the operator the option of twisty-stick as well as pedals) damn near fly themselves--their flight computers do more of the flying than the pilot does. Most of the last-generation fighters, like the F/A-18 and F-15, had significant assistance from the flight computer, but not at all like the full-authority fly-by-wire that the F-16 (and perhaps the current generation fighters, e.g. F-22?) has. As far as I can tell, all of the aircraft using force-sensing sticks and short-throw sidesticks are FA FBW, or, at the very least, have a much greater degree of control given to the computer (and thus much less required from the pilot) than the aircraft which have minimal intrusion by Hal (and which thus have longer sticks for the greater precision required from the pilot, since the computer isn't doing the work)--or, as in the case of airliners & gen-av craft, which don't require as precise of inputs, because they are not performing precision combat or aerobatic maneuvers, but rather mundane and routine basic flight.

 

There are those who would like to believe that short-throw controllers have as much potential precision as long-throw ones, but this is mathematically absolutely incorrect. Longer throw = more potential precision, all else constant. You want as much throw as your limbs are capable of handling. Consider this: with a 2-inch throw, an error of a quarter-inch motion is a ~13% error. With a 4-inch throw, that same quarter-inch error is now only a ~6% error. The only trade-off is that it takes an infinitesimally longer time to reverse the controls if you've got a larger throw, but this time is virtually insignificant--a much smaller percentage lost than the percentage gained in precision.

 

However, if people want to believe that their short-throw sticks are just as good, well, their funeral. Not my problem. Ears to hear, etc. etc. Have fun storming the castle.


Edited by Echo38
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If you put normal stick for right hand and twist control for left, then maybe twist will be ok. However, if twist control is on the single normal stick, you will have control 'noise': operating twist will affect elevator/aileron, and operating elevator/aileron will affect rudder. This will be especially true at some stick positions due to anatomy of human hand and wrist. Rudder pedals make some things much easier and precise.

Wir sehen uns in Walhalla.

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I cant speak about combat in the stang as my combat is limited to a few ground strafing runs when I have been offline.

 

However I can comment on aerobatics and formation flying and I can tell you now that with the exception of one pilot, all of the leading formation pilots I have flown with or spoken to use pedals as it does give you higher degrees of precision

 

Moving from a twist stick to pedals I will also say that it does. Having pedals does mean that you are able to make more precise control inputs.

 

For example its 10x easier to give right rudder (or left in my case!) during a loop in the stang while left aileron and back stick with rudder pedals then without them. Trying to give accurate inputs with a twist stick I would say is almost impossible bar one pilot I know

 

Pman

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Note that all of these FBW aircraft which use things like force-sensing and/or short-throw sidesticks (and the Predator UAV, which, IIRC, does give the operator the option of twisty-stick as well as pedals) pretty much fly themselves--their flight computers do much more of the flying than the pilot does. Most of the last-generation fighters like the F/A-18 and F-15 had significant assistance from the flight computer, but not at all like the full-authority fly-by-wire that the F-16 (and perhaps the current generation fighters, e.g. F-22?) has. As far as I can tell, all of the aircraft using force-sensing sticks and short-throw sidesticks are FA FBW, or, at the very least, have a much greater degree of control given to the computer (and thus much less required from the pilot) than the other aircraft which have less intrusion by Hal (and which have longer sticks for the greater precision required from the pilot, since the computer isn't doing the work)--or, as in the case of airliners & gen-av craft, which don't require as precise of inputs, because they are not performing precision combat or aerobatic maneuvers, but rather mundane and routine basic flight.

 

There are those who would like to believe that short-throw controllers have as much potential precision as long-throw ones, but this is mathematically absolutely incorrect. Longer throw = more potential precision, all else constant. You want as much throw as your limbs are capable of handling. Consider this: with a 2-inch throw, an error of a quarter-inch motion is a ~13% error. With a 4-inch throw, that same quarter-inch error is now only a ~6% error. The only trade-off is that it takes an infinitesimally longer time to reverse the controls if you've got a larger throw, but this time is virtually insignificant--a much smaller percentage lost than the percentage gained in precision.

 

Don't have any disagreement with most of this - largely an argument that doesn't address what I actually said, but your argument about long throw allowing better control than short throw (all other thing being equal) - I'm sure I - and many other people on the forums - have explained the same thing many times when talking about why some people had so much trouble transitioning to DCS modules - "it's not the FM, it's the short throw controller"

 

Something to take into consideration as well though. The all things being equal point...

A pair of home flight pedals look to have a throw of about 3 inches, and a twist grip gives you maybe half an inch - so let's put it as you have 6 times more latitude with pedals for a particular degree of accuracy in your input - but if you consider :

somatosenzoricky_a_motoricky_homunculus.jpg

The long throw advantage of the pedals that you use with your feet is probably offset by the considerable higher proportion of you brain that's devoted to controlling the twist stick in your hand.

 

However, if people want to believe that their short-throw sticks are just as good, well, their funeral. Not my problem. Ears to hear, etc. etc. Have fun storming the castle.

You sound tetchy - are you having a bad day ?

Cheers.

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this has all gone off topic

 

OP'S original post

 

"Well, after some problems during the take-off and even though in the dogfights, I realized how dificult is to control the Pony with a twist rudder (Sidewinder FF2).

Don´t matter how much force I use, it seems that the Stang just shakes without control!!!"

 

The answer is NO pedals will not stop the stang from shaking

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