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30mm gun - recoil


Flagrum
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I noticed that the 30mm of the Blackshark has quite some recoil. If I shoot a 10 round burst (fast) when the target is dead in front of me, the first 4-5 rounds land quite dead on on the target but then the helo is already moving to the right, thus spraying the remaining 5-6 rounds waaaay off the target. If I rotate the heli slightly to the left, the additional torque seems to counter-act this behaviour a bit - I get like 7-8 shots at the target.

 

Is this how the gun should be used? Or is there a better way / am I missing something here?

 

edit: additionally I often try to shorten the bursts to 5 rounds, as two bursts of 5 hit better than one burst of 10, even if the delay between the bursts is minimal.

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Targeting system is supposed to counter-act this torque when firing from what I read. I agree it misses a lot, but if you look at the Ka-50 videos you will see that cannon misses a lot also.

It is no sniper rifle, sure. But I also read somewhere, that the side-mount design should be inherently more stable than for example a free moving gun like in the Apache. Would make sense, if I were asked ...

 

But anyhow, the gun actually is pretty stabilized - for the first 5 shots. If it were a stabilization issue and the gun would spread all rounds left, right, in front and behind the target ... well then ... but the gun for itself is stable as rock - only that the helo as whole gets shoved away. This is ... dunno if it is realistic, but at least it is poorly designed by Kamov at least.

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Is your Shkval sensor locked on the target? If yes, your gun should follow the movements of the helo almost in real time.

 

I'm using slow rate of fire and short busts of 3-5 rounds.

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There are some videos on youtube showing Apaches firing at their targets. I was very shocked to see how spread out the impacts were compared to the impacts in BS.

 

My subjective opinion is that while the cannon does cause the KA-50 to rotate to the right the Shkval + Cannon combo is very accurate in DCS. I'd even go so far as to hazard a guess that the system in the sim is more accurate than the real KA-50.

 

Like I said, this after watching some Apache live fire on youtube. Any real KA-50 / KA-50-2 or KA-52 pilots out there to give a better view?

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Is your Shkval sensor locked on the target? If yes, your gun should follow the movements of the helo almost in real time.

 

I'm using slow rate of fire and short busts of 3-5 rounds.

Yes, Shkval is locked onto the target. And now I observed it all a bit more closely: when shooting, the helo does actually turn left to compensate for the recoil. Actually the gun is very accurate under normal conditions. The situation I described earlier seems only to be an issue, if the gun reticle is aiming left and almost touching the gun limits box in the hud. I think, the recoil of the first rounds pushes the gun aiming point (or better: the helo) out of the acceptable limits (outside the box in the hud) and that disables the gun stabilization - maybe with the thinking behind it, that there is already no chance at all that the gun would hit the target - so why stabilizing? Sounds again like a design flaw of Kamov ... if this behaviour is like in the real thing.

 

So, my conclusion is, put the target / the reticle not too close to the gun limits box boundaries, then everything will be fine and even your 20 rnds burst will be within 1x1 meters from 1.5 kilometers afar.

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There are some videos on youtube showing Apaches firing at their targets. I was very shocked to see how spread out the impacts were compared to the impacts in BS.

 

My subjective opinion is that while the cannon does cause the KA-50 to rotate to the right the Shkval + Cannon combo is very accurate in DCS. I'd even go so far as to hazard a guess that the system in the sim is more accurate than the real KA-50.

 

Like I said, this after watching some Apache live fire on youtube. Any real KA-50 / KA-50-2 or KA-52 pilots out there to give a better view?

Yes, when aimed right, the gun is a beast - see my other posting (the one above this).

 

I could well imagine, that the accuracy is not too exaggerated. As I said earlier, the free moving gun of an apache is inherently more unstable than a quite fixed mounted one in the Blackshark.

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I think, the recoil of the first rounds pushes the gun aiming point (or better: the helo) out of the acceptable limits (outside the box in the hud) and that disables the gun stabilization - maybe with the thinking behind it, that there is already no chance at all that the gun would hit the target - so why stabilizing? Sounds again like a design flaw of Kamov ... if this behaviour is like in the real thing.

That rectangle represents the gun's mount moving limits. So if your target is even on its boundary at least the first shot will go directly there. It may occur, that its recoil moves the helo enough to push your target out of the gun's limit and it can't no longer counteract the helo movement. So the conclusion is, that any further shots in the burst will probably miss.

 

The mounting of the gun was not a design flaw, it was a design decision. So the pilot must execute the attack within the gun's limits. And with the help of the autopilot chanels there is no problem to do so.

 

P.S.> Are your autopilot channels ON during the attack? Are you using Flight Director? If you have flight director on, than (imho) SAS is disabled and it can't counteract the gun recoil. Or can the "Turn to target" mode override it?

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That rectangle represents the gun's mount moving limits. So if your target is even on its boundary at least the first shot will go directly there. It may occur, that its recoil moves the helo enough to push your target out of the gun's limit and it can't no longer counteract the helo movement. So the conclusion is, that any further shots in the burst will probably miss.

Exactly. Thats how I saw it.

 

The mounting of the gun was not a design flaw, it was a design decision. So the pilot must execute the attack within the gun's limits. And with the help of the autopilot chanels there is no problem to do so.

Not the mounting of the gun, but that the stabilization is turned off at the very moment that the gun gets out of the gun boundaries box. Why not still counteracting the recoil? That would help the pilot at least to get the helo back on the target. But instead the whole helo swings around ...

But as I said in my other posting, if one takes care that the reticle is about in the middle (or anywhere not too close to the boundary box), there is no problem. The stabilization system then works well enough to keep the gun inside the box - and on target.

 

P.S.> Are your autopilot channels ON during the attack? Are you using Flight Director? If you have flight director on, than (imho) SAS is disabled and it can't counteract the gun recoil. Or can the "Turn to target" mode override it?

I have usually all channels on. But interesting question - worth some experiments. ;)

edit: AP channels must be on and FD does not matter.


Edited by Flagrum
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Just use your pedals to keep the aircraft from rotating to the right. In other words, as soon as you start shooting, gradually start applying left pedal to keep the reticle inside the constraints box and counteract the push to the right.

Yes, or I apply pedals a bit earlier so the target is in the middle of the box. Then the Blackshark is able to handle all on its own. :D

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Flaw of the pilot more like.

 

if the gun reticle is aiming left and almost touching the gun limits box in the hud. I think, the recoil of the first rounds pushes the gun aiming point out of the acceptable limits..............

 

........Sounds again like a design flaw of Kamov.

 

To be fair to the system, what you explain sounds like pilot error :)

 

As mentioned earlier, don't engage targets with the gun reticle on the left limit, as the increase in force will rotate you. Counteract with left rudder input.

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There are some videos on youtube showing Apaches firing at their targets. I was very shocked to see how spread out the impacts were compared to the impacts in BS.

 

My subjective opinion is that while the cannon does cause the KA-50 to rotate to the right the Shkval + Cannon combo is very accurate in DCS. I'd even go so far as to hazard a guess that the system in the sim is more accurate than the real KA-50.

 

The gun of the Apache is notorious for being a spray and pray weapon. Compare the mounting methods, the one employed on the Shark is massive. It's not unreasonable to assume that the Shipunov as mounted on the Shark is considerably more accurate.

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Some factors to elucidate:

 

Apache has a nose-mounted gun with a wide range of movement - this means a longer arm for the recoil to work on.

Black shark has the weapon mounted close to the centre of gravity.

 

Apache's 30mm is a relatively short barreled weapon.

Black Shark has a long barrel. This gives additional accuracy.

 

Basically, Kamov sacrificed range of movement on the cannon to get additional accuracy, compared to Apache, Cobra, Hind and Havoc.

 

This is, incidentally, the same 30mm that is also used on many russian IFV's.

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To be fair to the system, what you explain sounds like pilot error :)

I must agree :music_whistling:

This is, incidentally, the same 30mm that is also used on many russian IFV's.

Yes it is, as well as on Mi-28

 

It is a great weapon, simple in construction and very reliable, as all other russian weapons are :smilewink:

 

Autocanon_2A42_on_the_Mi28N_heli.JPG

 

BVP-2_%281%29.jpg


Edited by Suchacz
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To be fair to the system, what you explain sounds like pilot error :)

 

As mentioned earlier, don't engage targets with the gun reticle on the left limit, as the increase in force will rotate you. Counteract with left rudder input.

Pilot error? No. Well, yes, as the pilot now knows what happens. But "no" because of the "why" it happens.

 

If the reticle is inside the box, i expect the weapon conrol system to do it's best that it stays there. I do not really expect, that the WCS just plain and simple stops working. It is one thing, that the gun can't slew onto the target anymore, but it is an other thing that the stabilization shuts down completely ... I mean, why? What is the reasoning behind that?

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Pilot error? No. Well, yes, as the pilot now knows what happens. But "no" because of the "why" it happens.

 

If the reticle is inside the box, i expect the weapon conrol system to do it's best that it stays there. I do not really expect, that the WCS just plain and simple stops working. It is one thing, that the gun can't slew onto the target anymore, but it is an other thing that the stabilization shuts down completely ... I mean, why? What is the reasoning behind that?

You're right, it's not the pilot's fault. It is a fault of his training officer :D

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Honest question, what is your qualification to be so persistent in saying it's a design flaw and the wcs is acting strange ?

 

No offense but you're the first one to complain about the gun not working properly outside its hinge limits.

Adapt to strengths and weaknesses of the weapon system you are piloting and it will do exactly what you want!

 

MadCat

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The gun of the Apache is notorious for being a spray and pray weapon.

 

Well it was designed that way on purpose, after all. The aircraft documentation specifically refers to it as the AWS, Area Weapon System. The PTWS, or Point Target Weapon System, is the Hellfire.

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Honest question, what is your qualification to be so persistent in saying it's a design flaw and the wcs is acting strange ?

 

No offense but you're the first one to complain about the gun not working properly outside its hinge limits.

Adapt to strengths and weaknesses of the weapon system you are piloting and it will do exactly what you want!

 

MadCat

Persistent? I am fine with how it all works - now as I came to understand it.

 

But that does not mean that I understand why it behaves like it does. In my eyes there is no need to make it work that way, not technically nor otherwise.

 

Why has the stabilization of the helo have to be disabled, once the gun reaches its limits? Why does the helo actively make things more difficult for the pilot? If the stabilization of the helo just would remain active, it would leave the gun much nearer to it's target and only very little adjustment of the pilot would be necessary...

 

As I said, once you are aware of that, it is not a big deal. I just don't get the logic behind it.

 

edit: and I am not saying, the gun doesn't work well outside it's limits - it actually hits where it is aimed to. But the stabilization of the helo by the WCS is what I find ... inconsequent.


Edited by Flagrum
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Why has the stabilization of the helo have to be disabled, once the gun reaches its limits? Why does the helo actively make things more difficult for the pilot? If the stabilization of the helo just would remain active, it would leave the gun much nearer to it's target and only very little adjustment of the pilot would be necessary...

 

I am not a Kamov engineer, but I think I understand exactly why it works how it does.

 

There are two components interacting when you fire the cannon at a target: the gun-laying drive and the autopilot. The autopilot doesn't change modes at all when the gun is firing: all of the aim-point correction is being carried out by the gun-laying drive and the cannon's flexible mount. When the gun is close to its left-hand gimbal limit, recoil forces act on the helo, pushing it off of the autopilot's assigned course/attitude. Only once the helo leaves its assigned course/attitude does the autopilot kick in, and then only with 20% control authority—the flight control system isn't doing any pre-correction for recoil, only correcting with its usual authority when the helicopter's attitude changes in response to cannon fire, just as it would if you bumped the rudder pedals without holding in the trimmer.

 

It's not a design problem, but a problem with your perception of the interaction of the systems. It's not like the A-10, which has an actual linkage between the cannon and autopilot to hold the nose in place for long bursts. It's two separate system: the autopilot trying to respond to a new force it can't fully counteract because of limited control authority, and the cannon flex mount running out of gimbal as the helicopter moves during the burst.

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