EOS and sun glare fail

[Frostie]

Since FC3 the EOS system of all Russian aircraft has been all but made redundant. Especially with the lack of elevation.

 

I've performed a test on the limits of the scan cone used with the EOS.

 

I flew at 3000m with 5 aircraft in front of me at different altitudes at 1000m intervals eg. 1000m, 2000m, 3000m, 4000m, 5000m.

 

The results were as follows.

The co-altitude AI at 3000m, the same as me, was clearly visible on the EOS but it wasn't until 12.5km range before the 4000m AI became visible at the top of the HUD, this is 4.5 degrees angle.

The AI 1000m below me at 2000m didn't appear as a contract on the bottom of the HUD until 15km that is an astonishing 3.8 degrees.

 

So effectively the EOS limitations in FC3 currently stand at +4.5/-3.8 degrees which is bordering on pointless. This is similar to the actual scan zone that the real aircraft has but that uses elevation to look around to its gimbals of +60/-15°.

 

I have included a track.

 

I'd like to ask ED, what is going on here?

 

 

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Some resource

 

 

http://aerospace.boopidoo.com/philez...20Avionics.htm

 

OLS-27 / Izdeliye 36Sh

 

NPO Geofizika

 

 

 

 

OLS-27

 

 

 

 

A combined IRST/LR device for the Su-27, similar to the MiG-29's KOLS but more sophisticated, using a cooled, broader waveband, sensor. Tracking rate is over 25deg/sec. 50km range in pursuit engagement, 15km head-on. The laser rangefinder operates between 300-3000m for air targets, 300-5000m for ground targets.

Search limits are ±60deg azimuth, +60/-15° in elevation. Three different FOVs are used, 60° by 10°, 20° by 5°, and 3° by 3°. Detection range is up to 50km, whilst the laser ranger is effective from 300-3000m. Azimuth tracking is accurate to 5 secs, whilst range data is accurate to 3-10m. Targets are displayed on the same CRT display as the radar. Weighs 174kg.

OLS-27K for Su-33 featured new algorithms and better processor. It allegedly tracked targets in pursuit mode by their IR signature at 90 km during tests.

 

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http://aerospace.boopidoo.com/philez...20Avionics.htm

 

KOLS / Izdeliye 13Sh / OEPS-29

 

OKB: NPO Geophyizika

 

OEPS-29 from the MiG-29

Fitted to the MiG-29A, KOLS is a combined IRST/LR device. All aspect device. Acquires targets independently, or with data input from the radar. Can detect a non-afterburning fighter head-on at a range of 12-18km. The collimated laser can provide ranging data from 200-6500m accurate to 3m. Scanning limits are ±30° azimuth, -15°/+30° elevation.

Chart showing KOLS operational modes from MiG-29 combat employment manual

Operates in several scanning modes. In large FOV mode scanning is ±30° azimuth, +30°/15° elevation. In small FOV mode scanning limits are ±30° azimuth and ±15° elevation. Close combat mode scans +16° to -14° by 4°. Lock-on mode scans 6° x 4°. Target tracking rate is up to 30°/sec.

KOLS is able to reject flares only if the combined signature of the flares is less than the target.

Targets are displayed on the same display as the radar.

 

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Sun Glare

 

Secondly I would like to point out how irritating the sun glare on the HUD and MFD panels are, especially on the new Su-27 pit.

 

Currently when heading a certain direction with the sun above and behind the glare makes reading of the HUD and MFD impossible, now in the real world when this happens a simple shift of the head will allow you to see the screen clearly or to a certain degree, this doesn't work in DCS therefore making the reading of any valuable information impossible whilst flying on that particular heading. This glare is at its worst in the Su-27 but also shows up to a lesser extent in the F-15.

EOS test.rar

Edited June 16, 2013 by Frostie

[SFAL]

HEAR HEAR!

 

I had run into this myself and one of the reason i fly the Mig29S is that there is no glare on the panels and the R77s :)

 

ED please FIX the EOS on the birds....

[HiJack]

It's also a pain in the Su-25T :(

[Axion]

+1

 

Also like to see a fix for EOS and sun glare.

[SESova]

Presenting datas from real life and talking abouth Lock on is useless.I had this kind discusion abouth something else,and one of the testers said "if you insist on reality,you wont stay long at sumulation bussines".That is honest answer.Thay do Lock on to be playable,not realistic.Thats how thay want to do bussines and thats it.Unfortunately, much of the players supporting this.

I do not agree with it, but I can change nothing until I have the opportunity to have my own server.So to us, who want a higher percentage of realism, it remains only to hope that it will coincide with the current thinking ED, and thus be able to enjoy the right way to lock-on.Until then, the big question is whether EOS will be repaired or not ...

Edited June 16, 2013 by =SE=Sova

[karambiatos]

needs a fix/update

[*Rage*]

Why was eos gimbal vertical scanning ever disabled?

[Cedaway]

As the HUD is a glass, I found that it is normal it can be affected by the sun under certain angle. And can be considered as a feature, as a real-life restraint. Annoying but accurate...

[Frostie]

As the HUD is a glass, I found that it is normal it can be affected by the sun under certain angle. And can be considered as a feature, as a real-life restraint. Annoying but accurate...

Like I've already stated, in DCS it has a limitation, in the real world you can shift your head to reduce the glare, this doesn't work in DCS so the glare stays no matter how much you shift your head. The only solution is to change course which frankly is daft and not very accurate.

[RIPTIDE]

Like I've already stated, in DCS it has a limitation, in the real world you can shift your head to reduce the glare, this doesn't work in DCS so the glare stays no matter how much you shift your head. The only solution is to change course which frankly is daft and not very accurate.

It breaks me heart to say this, but I would have suggested for anyone going into Competition Flights or events to swap back to the Old cockpit until the glare is sorted.

 

Now I'll just jump on the stake so I can be burned at it for the suggestion. :helpsmilie:

[kobac]

When this is added the susceptibility R-27ER missiles, it seems to me a deliberate reduction combat capabilities Su-27 by the ED in this simulation.

[159th_Falcon]

When this is added the susceptibility R-27ER missiles, it seems to me a deliberate reduction combat capabilities Su-27 by the ED in this simulation.

In the hopes we forget about it so that when they release DCS SU-27SM they can release it again as an "new feature" :music_whistling:

(EOS vertical scan)

 

Problem is, the fast majority of the people will believe them, cause they don't know the roots of DCS.

 

We, and i mean the people here on the forums do know, but are only a minuscule percentage of ED's customers base and can as such be ignored when it suits them best.

[159th_Viper]

.....release DCS SU-27SM......

 

Remember, it's the S and not the SM if you read the 7 May update.

[159th_Falcon]

Remember, it's the S and not the SM if you read the 7 May update.

 

Plans changed already?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBGLb98zkFQ

1:20 SU-27SM

 

I bet that May 7th update is a typo and should read SM instead of S

 

***EDIT***

After actually looking at the may 7th update Wags only talks about SU-27 there.

Neither S or SM is mentioned anywhere.

 

***EDIT2***

And in the DCS Newsletter March 2013 Groove specifically mentions the SU-27 SM.

 

Currently the team is focused on completing Flaming Cliffs 3 and continued updates and improvements to DCS World. Once Flaming Cliffs 3 is complete, more of our focus will shift to upcoming DCS titles like the F-15C, F/A-18C and Fw-190D9. Looking further out, Eagle Dynamics and our partners plan a large number of new modules that include the Su-27SM, F-86F, MiG-15Bis, MiG-21Bis, Hawk, Mi-8, Mi-24, OH-58 and AH-1G, to just name a few.

Edited June 19, 2013 by 159th_Falcon

[Axion]

Providing it has a fully functional and accurate EOS system modeled within the realms of available data and sim feasibility, I'm not fussed which model it is.

[SESova]

Afther new update,EOS remain broken.Print your document Frostie,frame it and put it on the wall as a memory from all good days.

[Frostie]

Afther new update,EOS remain broken.Print your document Frostie,frame it and put it on the wall as a memory from all good days.

With EOS, TWS and ER's being broken for so long i'm starting to understand while having fond memories of FC2.

I've always liked the challenge and when it became tough for Flankers in FC2 I wasn't fazed at least you could engage F-15s at range. But now even high altitude 30-40km ER shots don't even make the bandit worry he carries on at you like nothing happened and when it comes to alternate tactics the EOS is bust so it's become a frustrating exercise to fly a Flanker. I certainly don't think we were spoiled in FC2, rather than just not having RL features added instead we've had RL features removed or hindered kind of like taking your cake away and giving you a bill.

[kobac]

As for now, we can only fly in a group or acrobatic flying with beautiful new model Su-27. Air combat will only lead with F-15C because this does not make sense to fly in Su-27 and be a sitting duck.

[Teknetinium]

With EOS, TWS and ER's being broken for so long i'm starting to understand while having fond memories of FC2.

I've always liked the challenge and when it became tough for Flankers in FC2 I wasn't fazed at least you could engage F-15s at range. But now even high altitude 30-40km ER shots don't even make the bandit worry he carries on at you like nothing happened and when it comes to alternate tactics the EOS is bust so it's become a frustrating exercise to fly a Flanker. I certainly don't think we were spoiled in FC2, rather than just not having RL features added instead we've had RL features removed or hindered kind of like taking your cake away and giving you a bill.

 

Comrade, I feel the same way, I hold my breath that EOS/TWS and ERs get some attention by ED in 1.2.5.

And like Frostie is saying I like the challenge as well, but this is just not realistic.

Disappointed that this bugs has not been addressed for so long time, it is ridiculous to fly Su-27 against F-15s with current EOS/TWS and ERs.

 

I don't want my TWS to lock automatically, there is a switch in Su-27 to disable auto-lock. It was better in FC2 why break it.

If the target-designator in FC2 was not close to the bandit showing on HUD, the radar would not auto-lock, that was excellent workaround to have both options.

 

Where did my my cake go?

Edited July 4, 2013 by Teknetinium

[*Rage*]

I am sure (I hope) ED will heed the call!

[Kenan]

^^There is no doubt in my mind they, eventually, will. They do listen to the community. I just wish pre-release testing had a better QA so we don't have to wait thru several patches to get some of the outstanding bugs fixed.

[SESova]

^^There is no doubt in my mind they, eventually, will. They do listen to the community. I just wish pre-release testing had a better QA so we don't have to wait thru several patches to get some of the outstanding bugs fixed.

I have to express my disagreement with you.Almost there is no example where the ED has acknowledge the request of the comunty.Thay

have decided to change thair clients.Older and experienced players, fans of the air force to replace the with young gamers,people why are going to play enything where thay can do scrips changes,do some cheats...Thats why thay dont put effords and attention to missiles and radar, but do dynamic shadows, sun glare, unusable TWS on russian planes and a bunch of other useless things that are useless,that someone new and ignorant to get impression it is something great.So,is it seomething like in reality or not, it's totally irrelevant.Only thing that is important is that the F-15 must be better than any russian plane.It is important that russian aircraft pilots deny any possibility of success if his presence is revealed by the pilot F 15.

I'm glad now that others say that,because testers are adamant that this is just my problem and a few others, and the rest were very satisfied.

Look the forum.In the time of the 1.12b we where desscuing abouth events.Now on the forum people asking which key activates aftherburner,why i brake lending gear when i lend at bombed runway...

I think it's bad for them and will have financial losses because of that, but...

At this moment,whole comunity of the Lock on is server of the 51-st squadron.

Edited July 4, 2013 by =SE=Sova

[Kenan]

^^FC3 bugs aside, ED did in fact listen and listens to the community. Remember in FC3 only the F15C was supposed to have 6DOF pits and after folks complained about it, claiming the price tag is too high for the features available, they released more 6DOF pits and added new features (TWS 2 for MiG29s). ER in FC3 is porked, I agree with that but I don't think ED did this on purpose, it's rather lack of resources to get this done and IMO, lack of better QA / more thorough testing which resulted in some of the bugs, that were supposed to be fixed long time ago (like F15C landing bug) still being present.

 

I'm sure they'll, eventually, enhance the 27ER to give the Flanker pilots fighting chance. You can't really compare these things in RL. In RL even a "porked" 27ER with a first shot advantage (due to an increased range) would deter an opponent from any further advancing and unlike AI or online players, the pilot wouldn't continue to rush towards the missile presuming it will simply fail and wait for his own missile to get in the launch range.. ;)

[Teknetinium]

^^ You can't really compare these things in RL. In RL even a "porked" 27ER with a first shot advantage (due to an increased range) would deter an opponent from any further advancing and unlike AI or online players, the pilot wouldn't continue to rush towards the missile presuming it will simply fail and wait for his own missile to get in the launch range.. ;)

 

Thats the point,

[SESova]

Yes,exactly.

What´s the use of 6dof cocpit if you have no missiles to fight?Or sensores to find target?

What is the use of broken tws?Do you using it?How many "kills" have you made with it?(multiplayer of course)

Thats what am I talking abouth.