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Blackshark Cyclic Modes


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I'm assuming there will be a standard cyclic option for Blackshark for people who have pole cyclics, so they are required to keep the stick forward for forward flight. However, will there be a digital trim update option for people with a standard joystick? This option is also known as automatic pitch loading or, as I like to call it, sticky cyclic. Essentially, you are not only temporarily adjusting the pitch, but the trim as well, which is updated automatically. This is a system used on newer fly by wire designs, but is something that has always been available on consumer flight sims to make it easier to use a standard stick...this is also the reason why helos with this type of system use side joysticks instead of a pole cyclic. The two go together. So anyway, I was wondering if this was planned or not for Blackshark. If not, it certainly needs to be. I would also remind the designers that real trim update has a limit to how far you can pitch forward...obviously. So if you already have the collective high and the chopper flying at a high velocity, you may not be able to pitch forward any further. In the RAH-66 and similar FBW systems, a simple pitch trim cuing system is used in the HUD to give a visual of what the current setting is...usually just a simple vertical line with a center mark, end marks, and a moving caret along it to show that setting. I don't know if the Blackshark has a continuous trim update option, but since this sim should have it available and ED wants to make it as realistic as possible, a trim update option should be done in a realistic manner as well, whether the real aircraft has it or not. Thank you for your time.

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That's a completely different subject. Have you ever flown choppers in X-Plane or Longbow Anthology? I've been flying chopper sims ever since Gunship 2000. It’s hard to describe what I’m talking about unless we have a more common reference. Allowing for "trim update" is something practically every chopper sim ever made has done. Of course you still have separate cyclic, collective, and rudder/anti-torque/yaw controls. What I'm talking about is a way to prevent you from having to keep the stick forward all the time, without requiring manual trim settings in the pitch axis. Some real helos have this, but regardless of whether the Ka-50 does, the sim on it needs this available for people who wish to turn it on. Allowing a keypress to turn it (and the HUD cue) on in game would be even better. In X-Plane, this feature is called Auto Trim Pitch Loads. In the actual RAH-66 and a few other aircraft that have it, it's called Digital Trim Update. Without this option, it will be extremely difficult for the average simmer without a pole cyclic to fly the Ka-50. In the above post I also outlined how ED should go about implementing it, including a cue in the HUD that no other sim has allowed before. I know I am doing both ED and chopper sim fans a favor by posting this, though it might sound acerbic or cryptic.

If there are any ED programmers or beta testers, I'd appreciate a response. Thank you.

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As far as I can translate this (with assistance from Google and Amazon, hem hem), you want to have a control system for the Ka50 that means you don't need to hold the stick forward to keep going forward, even if that's not the way the real aircraft does it.

 

You'd also like to modify the HUD to incorporate this - regardless of whether it's present on the real aircraft.

 

 

I just don't get this bit:

 

a trim update option should be done in a realistic manner as well, whether the real aircraft has it or not.

 

And this comment:

 

I know I am doing both ED and chopper sim fans a favor by posting this, though it might sound acerbic or cryptic.

 

Doesn't sound acerbic or cryptic . . . . to be honest, mate, that phrase makes it sound like you're slightly full of yourself ;)

 

 

In my personal opinion, adjusting the operation of the HUD and controls when you've worked hard with the realistic physics, systems, and flight model in an attempt to produce a realistic chopper flightsim . . . . . is silly.

 

Hey, it's ED's design decision . . . . . wait and see.

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I mean attempting to implement Trim Update in a realistic manner compared to how such systems (i.e. Trim Update) work, regardless of whether the Blackshark has trim update, or not. I know that seems contradictory, but bare with me. The real Blackshark does not have a digital side stick, either, but 99% of the people who will buy it will (though they might put the stick in front rather than on the side). Digital side sticks are used in such systems, and if you think of it in the opposite way: if you own a standard style joystick (as opposed to a pole cyclic) Trim Update will be a necessity. Have either of you ever flown chopper sims before? You act like me thinking standard joystick users shouldn't have to keep the stick pushed all the time is something new. It's not. That's the standard method in combat chopper sims for the consumer market and it's been like that for over a decade. I certainly understand why ED would want to include a conventional pole cyclic pitch function. X-Plane does the same thing. But even Austin Meyer knows most people are using a standard joystick. Please take the time to try Longbow 2 and X-Plane before assuming I'm full of myself on this. I really think people will be much happier if a Trim Update option is included. I am the only one who's mentioned this on either this forum or SimHQ, but I'm also the guy that helped Austin Meyer figure out how to impliment Trim Update for the non-professional crowd. The same guy, me, is the one bitching about this both to Austin and ED, and while every prior sim has it, few of the actual choppers being simulated actually do, yet none of the users seem to have any clue what I'm talking about. I don't mean that to boast, it's just this is important but that's how few people actually think about this thing. Right now I might be like the only one on the planet thinking about this topic in consumer sims; who knows? Like I said, I think chopper fans just take Auto Trim Update for granted, possibly because it's usually not implimented correctly in the first place (HUD symbology, trim limits) and because it's often not an option, but rather turned on all the time. In the process of making Blackshark as realistic as possible ED might leave it out completely. I'm just trying to make sure for the good of both ED and the people who will use it...including selfish me. And if you don't know what I'm talking about or see the utility of it, I urge you to get a chopper sim and try it out for yourself. For the record, I use the Saitek X52. So hopefully that will clear up any misunderstanding that I'm using just one stick and no collective/throttle.

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I've got a tiny bit of time in the 206LR IRL, does that count? ;)

 

I understand your request for having that feature as an option, maybe it could be implemented in an easy flight model which could be selected in the setup menu. Now, in the AFM, on the other hand...if the Ka50 actually has this feature, I'm sure ED will include it.

 

Its a bit of an adjustment for flight simmers who have largely flown fixed wing aircraft, but with a little time, its not that difficult to adjust to having to hold the cyclic in a given position. BTW...I don't know too many people who use digital joysticks anymore. Heh...I feel sorry for those guys who have sticks with really stiff springs though, it'll be more like flying an old 47 for them. The cyclic and collective in the 206LR are hydraulically boosted, so the controls are actually pretty light and easy to handle...although it gives a bit more feedback than any PC joystick. ;) When this game comes out, I'm definitely going to have to get some pedals...I don't think I'd be able to fly an AFM helicopter very effectively with the microstick on my CH Pro Throttle, which is what I'm using now for my rudder/NWS axis. :D

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real ka-50 has this function

 

P.S.

. I know I am doing both ED and chopper sim fans a favor by posting this, though it might sound acerbic or cryptic.

ED and comunity don't need your FAVOURS.Maybe ED will listen to some of your advises or proposals

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It wouldn't need to be in an "arcade" or simplified flight model. You guys are talking out your asses by suggesting either that's what I'm asking for or what it ends up giving you by having that option. Real choppers that don't use it have pole cyclics. Choppers with joysticks like 99% of us will be using have auto trim update.

 

Iguana, you don't necessarily need pedals. If you're transitioning from a real one I can understand certainly, but if there's a sticky pitch on ED's Blackshark you can also use a twist rudder without sacrificing general realism (as opposed to the specific realism of the Blackshark itself). The US Army Air Mobility Lab and Sikorsky's in depth tests found that when using trim update in a helo AFCS, a side joystick with a twist axis was actually more effective than pedals. The Apache, Chinook, and Blackhawk updates will all eventually inherit that from the Comanche. Just a thought.

 

Krendel, if the real chopper has trim update then all is well with this issue since we can expect ED to model it. And if the real one didn't have it people would be bitching like crazy for ED to put it in after the release. So yes, they would need this suggestion to prevent people from spending five minutes with it and then uninstalling the sim claiming ED wasted what could have been an new hornet add-on, or something. This'll be the first truely realistic attempt at a combat chopper sim in, what, 8 years? Two forums later I finally get an answer after putting up with a ton of crap about how it doesn't exist in sims or in real life so why even ask about it, accusations I wanted a simplified flight model, and zero appreciation from a clueless chopper sim fan base. My work here is done.

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It wouldn't need to be in an "arcade" or simplified flight model. You guys are talking out your asses by suggesting either that's what I'm asking for or what it ends up giving you by having that option. Real choppers that don't use it have pole cyclics. Choppers with joysticks like 99% of us will be using have auto trim update.

 

Iguana, you don't necessarily need pedals. If you're transitioning from a real one I can understand certainly, but if there's a sticky pitch on ED's Blackshark you can also use a twist rudder without sacrificing general realism (as opposed to the specific realism of the Blackshark itself). The US Army Air Mobility Lab and Sikorsky's in depth tests found that when using trim update in a helo AFCS, a side joystick with a twist axis was actually more effective than pedals. The Apache, Chinook, and Blackhawk updates will all eventually inherit that from the Comanche. Just a thought.

 

Krendel, if the real chopper has trim update then all is well with this issue since we can expect ED to model it. And if the real one didn't have it people would be bitching like crazy for ED to put it in after the release. So yes, they would need this suggestion to prevent people from spending five minutes with it and then uninstalling the sim claiming ED wasted what could have been an new hornet add-on, or something. This'll be the first truely realistic attempt at a combat chopper sim in, what, 8 years? Two forums later I finally get an answer after putting up with a ton of crap about how it doesn't exist in sims or in real life so why even ask about it, accusations I wanted a simplified flight model, and zero appreciation from a clueless chopper sim fan base. My work here is done.

If you would have said from the start that the Ka-50 had this feature you would not have had any "bitching".

If the real helicopter has the feature then it should be in the sim.

Otherwise, no, it should not be in the sim.

And yeah, let's hope your 'work' here is done as your attitude certainly leaves something to be desired.

i7-2600k@4GHz, 8GB, R9 280X 3GB, SSD, HOTAS WH, Pro Flight Combat Pedals, TIR5

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Guest IguanaKing
Iguana, you don't necessarily need pedals. If you're transitioning from a real one I can understand certainly, but if there's a sticky pitch on ED's Blackshark you can also use a twist rudder without sacrificing general realism (as opposed to the specific realism of the Blackshark itself). The US Army Air Mobility Lab and Sikorsky's in depth tests found that when using trim update in a helo AFCS, a side joystick with a twist axis was actually more effective than pedals. The Apache, Chinook, and Blackhawk updates will all eventually inherit that from the Comanche. Just a thought.

 

Yup. I know what's going on with the newer helicopters, I just need to do the best with what I have. Right now, using that microstick on the throttle for my pedals wouldn't work too well, since the throttle would be my collective. I think it'd be kinda awkward to try and balance torque when my current rudder control is right there on the thing that changes torque on the airframe. I have a CH setup, so adding pedals will be no big deal.

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