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OT: F/A-22 vs. well everything else


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Granted, much is classified about F/A-22, still the more I learn about the more scarier it seems, the more irrelevant every other 5th gen platform is seen.

I am comparing it to Typhoon, and SU-37(thrust vector). Theres nothing else really to compare it to, including Grippen. In serioua air2air combat given high level of skill, a threat pilot only has any real chance to engage FA-22 in Typhoon or SU-37 VT variant. Eurofighter claims that in CAC Typhoon has advantage in turning and burning. Who are they kidding. A thrust vectoring aircraft would naturally have more nose authority, especcially at lower speeds.F/A-22 is capable of true tailslide and 90+ AOA, I've seen the video. Though honestly I am not fond , at least in flight sim fighting, of tailslide. At the end of that move, you got no energy. Where low speed nose authority would be usefull in 1V1 where in CAC the opponents scissor until stall speed. In which case the, guy that retain more nose control at lower speed and high AOA attitude has the advantage. Now Typhoon's canards give it low speed high AOA nose authority, but not quite as low as F/A-22 with thrust vector.

Well thats just CAC. As far as BVR and BVR merge, forget about it. F/A-22 could initiate Scorpion attack before Typhoon or Su-37 would even know about it. TYphoon's Meteor long range BVR missile (EU's AIM-54) is very amazing. But thats assuming that F/A-22 would be targeted at range beyond AIM120-C-5. Same goes for R-27ET and RR-77ER(extended range R-77). In the end, both Typhoon and SU-37 are AMAZING high peformance 5th gen conventional aircraft. While F/A-22 is high performance low observeables aircraft. I think its just as well that its unlikely that any of the three will see combat against each other for the foreseeable future.

I like the US Air Force's somewhat 'arrogant' estimation that with F/A-22 they would gain theater wide air dominace not just local air superiority espoused by Typhoon and SU-37. The hutzbah of the Americans makes me proud of being one of them. I mean I look at what Americans are doing as to air dominance in 21st Century. They got F/A-22 for air dominance fighter, B-2 for strategic penetration bomber, B-One and F-15E for regional theater bomber, and entering service YAL-1A Airborne Laser.

The only aircraft I don't like is the JSF. What a DOG! What a waste of money. For what the intend JSF to do, I would much rather have US develop F-16 into a super low cost platform. The way I see it, it would have been more effective to take F-16 airframe. Strengthen it to 11g load. Add MultiAxisThrustVector F119 or F110 or similar powerplant. Add conformal tanks and spine for internal ECM/avionics. Hell ,all Americans had to is to Americanise the F-16I Soufa, and save how many billions developing JSF.

All JSF has is its low visibility as its defense. In ACM especcially CAC, SU-37, Grippen, Typhoon, Mig-29/35, and 4th/5th gen Chinese airframes will eat it alive. I am surmising of course. But they are implementing a 5th gen airframe without thrust vector, and limited visibility, and limited range.

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It's 'Gripen' which means 'The Griffon'. And it's purposely unbalanced to be able to turn really fast, don't know about AoA limits but 90+ seems like hell a lot.

As the Raptor is a stealth aircraft its biggest advantage will obviously be in BVR engagements.

But as soon as it uses it's radar, and I suppose it has to, it's cover is mostly gone.

And I guess that when manuevering the plane will at some points reflect enough to be detected...

 

Networks of ground radars might be able to be made to detect stealth aircraft. One radar sends and some of the others recieves the deflected energy, and by triangulating the 'bounce' point the position of the aircraft should be detectable... or maybe there could be some kind of powerful laser detection system developed.. I'm sure that this kind of stealth will be useless some time not so far in the future.

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But as soon as it uses it's radar, and I suppose it has to, it's cover is mostly gone.

This sentence lead me to a probably silly observation, but here we go.

With apparition of stealth technology, couldn't the next possible technology for missiles be "track on radar" system (a bit like a HARM, but against airborne radars)? If your opponent is stealth, you could keep him "uneffective" by forbidding him to use his radar because of your weaponry.

/end of silly comment

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Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN

as far as i am concerned, until they actually go up against each other for real on a few occasions and not just once, then not one of them is declared the best in the world.

 

USA like to say there stuff is the best, granted it may very well be, but it cant be the best at everything and all the time.

 

So i can believe that in bvr it will be the best, but what about cac, what about close in turning fights, pure flat out speed for running away for any reason etc etc, the list is endless and not one aircraft mentioned above is the best at them all.

 

All of them are great aircraft, and all have probably been made with different point of views and slightly different aspects to what they will "MOSTLY" be used for.

 

As for the 22 being the dogs bollocks, I agree that its nice and is a very capable aircraft "so they say and love to shout about", but please dont get into the mindset that since its american made that it must be the best aircraft in the world at everything that it was designed to do.

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I saw a program on the F22 on Discovery channel where the F22 went up against 5 or more F15' in a mock battle. In the end all F15 are shot down, and none even seen the F22. So that leads me to beleive that engaging radar doesn't nessesarily give they're position away. All F15 pilots hadno idea where the F22 was at any time. All the pilots were vets.

 

Now granted this was a mock battle, but I have to beleive it was set up as close to a real battle as possible.

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The Raptor has no AOA limiters and its capable of manuvering below stall speed, so in essence its AOA is unlimited. Basically if the pilot wanted to he could flip the Raptor on a dime, if he didn't black out first... and the put on the brakes and let him blow past from Top Gun, seems like it might work with the Raptor. ;)

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The only Fighters that F-22's are most likely to go up against are aging Migs and they will be even older by the time the F22 comes into full service.. So you can guarantee one thing and that is they will shoot them down just as effectively as the Eagle has done ;).

 

All this talk about which one is better really depends on what your country feels it will need in future combat situations, seeing as none of the fighters listed will ever engage each other. If you need lots of air superiority fighters then the Typhoon will give you much more bang for your buck however if its the best of the best then the F22 is your ride ..

Cozmo.

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This sentence lead me to a probably silly observation, but here we go.

With apparition of stealth technology, couldn't the next possible technology for missiles be "track on radar" system (a bit like a HARM, but against airborne radars)? If your opponent is stealth, you could keep him "uneffective" by forbidding him to use his radar because of your weaponry.

/end of silly comment

Not sure why that would be silly.

You'd never know it was coming... and once it's close enough it goes active with radar and IR and whatnot so it won't matter if you turn the radar off.

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I saw a program on the F22 on Discovery channel where the F22 went up against 5 or more F15' in a mock battle. In the end all F15 are shot down, and none even seen the F22. So that leads me to beleive that engaging radar doesn't nessesarily give they're position away. All F15 pilots hadno idea where the F22 was at any time. All the pilots were vets.

 

Now granted this was a mock battle, but I have to beleive it was set up as close to a real battle as possible.

How can you not know from where, direction wise, you're being painted or tracked?

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The only Fighters that F-22's are most likely to go up against are aging Migs and they will be even older by the time the F22 comes into full service.. So you can guarantee one thing and that is they will shoot them down just as effectively as the Eagle has done ;).

 

All this talk about which one is better really depends on what your country feels it will need in future combat situations, seeing as none of the fighters listed will ever engage each other. If you need lots of air superiority fighters then the Typhoon will give you much more bang for your buck however if its the best of the best then the F22 is your ride ..

Gripen has the best looks :horseback

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How can you not know from where, direction wise, you're being painted or tracked?

 

I think an F22 can track targets and fire against them using info from another F22 or awacs .. anyway something like I think.. not 100% sure though.

 

And.. Nah the Gripen looks like it's missing an engine ;)..

 

Still padding up that post count, I see. ;)

 

LOL

Cozmo.

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Minimum effort, maximum satisfaction.

 

CDDS Tutorial Version 3. | Main Screen Mods.

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I think an F22 can track targets and fire against them using info from another F22 or awacs .. anyway something like I think.. not 100% sure though.

 

And.. Nah the Gripen looks like it's missing an engine ;)..

Sure it can but I thought it was only a F-22 against five F-15... nothing else.

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Not everyone cares about postcount.

 

Yeah, I don't either. If I did do you think I would be as low as I am.

 

I think you should plan your posts a bit better or people will get the wrong idea about them and rate it as spam.

 

 

 

 

Anyways enough of the Hijack. Back on topic.

 

I remember a while back that there was a development of the Kh-31 being designed to take out AWACS, the Kh-31R IIRC. Anymore news on this?

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Who said it wasn't all it was suppose to be?.. Anyway I thought both sides would have had AWACS .. I think I saw the same documentary and the explanation they gave wasn't very specific but along the lines of it can track from other F22's or AWACS....could be I saw a different program but no need to get defensive.

Cozmo.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Minimum effort, maximum satisfaction.

 

CDDS Tutorial Version 3. | Main Screen Mods.

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Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN

I think all the aircraft that are mentioned in the first few posts are all extremely capable of doing what they were built to do, some will be better at somethings compared to the others and vice versa.

 

But and there is always a but, I think the shortcomings of the f22 will be its technology, it is far to technologically advanced to make it as rugged and dependable as other aircraft. I wonder if it would get grounded if it went to war in iraq due to the "wrong type of sand" entering cracks and seams and destroying its fancy electronics, just like what is happening now with tanks and helicopters etc, That can also happen to other Aircraft mentioned, but I wonder if it will happen more with the raptors and keep a good majority of them grounded due to some stupid little unforeseen scenario

 

That in my opinion will be the f22s achilles heal, and also will it have to be RAM painted again like the b2s after every other flight ?

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Because the APG-77 changes frequencies 1,000 times per second and it has the capability to overload the sensors of any other aircraft, effectively blinding them.
Overloaded sensors should not be an issue with modern aircraft, should be easy enough to just take in what you need/want.

And what is the purpose of frequenzy hopping? The emissions are still coming from the same place.

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