My Blackshark Wingman is Pathetic

[GAJ52]

I have just been trying the Clear Tkvarcheli mission again. I positioned myself and my wingman at a safe distance from the enemy, but within range of our missiles and ordered my wingman to attack a target I had locked up. I then remained in a hover and watched him fly around in circles behind a hill dispensing chaff.

 

I then ignored him and took out as many air defences as I could until I ran out of missiles, he was still flying around behind the hill :cry: I then asked him to rejoin and this time told him to attack ground targets. He then flew back behind the same hill throwing out more chaff.

 

I went back to the FARP to rearm, and when I returned he was still flying around behind the hill not having fired a shot.

 

I know ED have to keep new additions coming to DCS World to keep the money coming in but I wish they would spend some man power fixing these ridiculous AI bugs and make Blackshark SP fun again.

 

I have just bought Blackshark for the third time (BS1, BS2 Upgrade now BS2 Full) so if you can detect any annoyance in my post then your right. Please ED take a serious look at the Wingman attack programming, at the moment its a joke. All I want is for my wingman to do what I tell him to via these seemingly useless radio commands.

[GAJ52]

I was hoping for a bit more support on this one.

 

If we don't all cry out that Blackshark still has big problems then I'm sure ED will concentrate their resources on the new stuff like FC3 and just let the dust build up on this great simulation of the Blackshark.

 

I know there is the 'Bugs and Glitches' thread but that now contains 80 posts and some of these problems may be missed.

[159th_Viper]

This would really help:

 

1 - Replicate the issue in another custom, small, short mission.

 

2 - If so replicated, post the track and mission files.

[GAJ52]

Does posting a track really help.

 

I did this once before with a similar problem on the A-10C and the person looking at the track said the aircraft did attack the target, but when I made the track it didn't - it may have even been you. It was then pointed out a track can play differently each time its played, so you or anyone else may get a different result.

[159th_Viper]

Hence the request for a custom mission, as small and short as possible to eliminate possible track playback issues.

 

In all the latest public version tests I have run I have had zero replay issues.

 

And yes, a track does help - a bug report without a track is more often than not overlooked in favour of those reports that do contain corroborating info/tracks.

[imayora]

I'm havin problems as well trying to have them attack targets in many missions of the GOW stock campaign.

 

In those missions they are answering negative/unable/etc to my "attack my target" commands, as well as to datalink targets. They will only attack air defenses.

 

In other missions, however, they work as expected. I have the theory that the behavior above happens in missions where the targets do not appear in the F10 view with fog of war visibility option as I have encounter this situation quite often.

[MadDog-IC]

I was hoping for a bit more support on this one.

 

If we don't all cry out that Blackshark still has big problems then I'm sure ED will concentrate their resources on the new stuff like FC3 and just let the dust build up on this great simulation of the Blackshark.

 

I know there is the 'Bugs and Glitches' thread but that now contains 80 posts and some of these problems may be missed.

 

Two aussie blackshark pilots here that would agree with you, the shark needs some tender loving care, sentiments of myself (MadDog-IC) and wingman (rotorwash).

 

I still have issues with the Datalinking but havent had the time play and test or document issue:

 

 

• Send target from shkval to ai wingman and then tell to engage datalink target, flys there and does nothing, doesn't engage and shoot
  
• Send target from shkval and tell to engage datalink targets, engages ok.
  

Crazy ivan skval running amuck is another issue that has been around for ages, intermittent, but very prevalent on some maps, lower lighting I would say.

[GAJ52]

Thanks for your support Maddog :thumbup:

 

I really can't understand why more people aren't jumping up and down about these wingman issues. It is wrecking the Single Player gameplay, I can only assume most people fly online or don't bother using their wingman during SP sessions.

[Gunsmoke]

This has helped me out some..

 

http://files.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/131355/

[Nate--IRL--]

There are some changes in AI behaviour you may not be aware of. The AI will not fly into danger or will prioritise Anti-air targets, even if you tell him to attack your target or ground targets. He will no longer fly dumbly to a target, he will avoid Anti air threats as a priority.

 

If he can't safely engage a target he will say he's unable. Suicidal Wingman was the biggest criticism, of the BS1 AI. The AI is far more cautious now.

 

That said, that doesn't preclude new issues, this is why we are asking for short tracks showing incorrect behaviour. Help us Help you.

 

Nate

[GAJ52]

Interesting, I have created a small mission with 4 tanks and a SA-9 as a deterrent and asked my wingman to attack my target, locking up one of the tanks. To my surprise he took out the tank :(

 

I then tried the mission again using the Datalink for target practice and that worked as well :doh:

 

I can't seem to get it to work when using the 'Create Quick Missions' - maybe because there are too many air defences - I'll have to take a closer look at this.

[BigBANGtheory]

I've been having wingman problems too having recently starting playing through the Deployment KA-50 campaign on the latest DCS:World (I only had ever played the first few missions on the legacy BS2 standalone product).

 

The 'Dusk' mission in the campaign it was particularly noticable, with my wingman either refusing to engage with an 'unable or negative' or confirming engagement but ending up flying off looping around the area not firing a shot. I thought I was doing something wrong in the Datalink or targeting so went back to the interactive training, but even in that if you ask Wingman 4 to engage datalink targets it shows similar behaviour (for me atleast).

 

Try the Dusk mission in the KA-50 Deployment campaign on the current DCS:World...

 

Part of the problem I think is the wingman not reporting on his current status, if he has to break off or reject an order it would be nice to understand why. If he cannot complete an order or appears stuck then it would be nice to ask him to report on his status and clear whatever commands he has queued. Its almost as if the AI conflicts with itself then can't act on new attack orders.

[GAJ52]

One theory appears to be they will not fly into danger as they used to in previous versions. I created a small mission with a few tanks and a Sam and he did what I told him to do.

 

I have since created some Fast Missions where I have taken care of all the Air Defences and asked him to attack 'docile' Datalink targets, he says Copy heads towards the target then says Rejoin, so it can't be a danger thing, if so its not working correctly.

 

When I assign him an order to attack a target why does he always dive to the ground do a few dance moves before saying rejoin. As we are both in range when I give the order, why can't he just stay put and deploy his missiles from there at a safe range ??

 

I have now given up on this subject, I have tried many times in various posts to point this problem out without success - if its not investigated or fixed, then so be it.

[Nate--IRL--]

I have now given up on this subject, I have tried many times in various posts to point this problem out without success - if its not investigated or fixed, then so be it.

 

I am happy to take a look at any simple track or simple mission you provide. That way I can see much clearer what it is you are seeing.

 

Nate

[AlphaOneSix]

Just a shot in the dark here, but try setting your wingman experience level to excellent. I have noted that engagement ranges increase dramatically at higher intelligence levels. When set to average, they can be very frustrating. Hope this helps. Also, a track or mission file that repeatedly shows the problem would help. Like Nate, I'd be glad to have a go at it.

[GAJ52]

Thanks, I'll try again and send a track.

[plane00]

in my experience , from BS 1 , AI's behaviors are problematic

and became so unfair. and very weird balance ( advent of new super helicopters. .)

I hope policy of interfering AI logic should be reconsidered. .

 

I also want my playing ongongoing after BS 1. :helpsmilie:

Edited April 3, 2013 by plane00

[BigBANGtheory]

Just a shot in the dark here, but try setting your wingman experience level to excellent. I have noted that engagement ranges increase dramatically at higher intelligence levels. When set to average, they can be very frustrating. Hope this helps. Also, a track or mission file that repeatedly shows the problem would help. Like Nate, I'd be glad to have a go at it.

 

I just checked and the wingman skill level for the Dusk mission 11 in the Deployment campaign is currently set to Good. I am now on mission 12 where the wingman skill level is set to Excellent and yes I have to say the wingman in this mission behaves better so you maybe onto something there.

[GAJ52]

Nate, AlphaOneSix,

 

I have created a Quick Mission, Airborne to save time and the Wingman has been set to Excellent. I locked up a target and Datalinked it to my wingman.

 

The result was as usual Copy then Rejoin

 

Glen

Failed Attack.trk

[Nate--IRL--]

Thanks - the problem in that one is the formation, as he goes to manoeuvre to engage he nearly collides with the player and will break off the attack - if you choose a different formation like trail, and then tell him to attack the Datalink group he engages.

 

That said I've spotted a few other problems, and will report them.

 

Nate

[GAJ52]

Thanks - the problem in that one is the formation, as he goes to manoeuvre to engage he nearly collides with the player and will break off the attack - if you choose a different formation like trail, and then tell him to attack the Datalink group he engages.

 

That said I've spotted a few other problems, and will report them.

 

Nate

 

Thanks Nate

 

I'll try a different formation, that's something I don't normally worry about as he is normally at the side anyway.

 

Can you tell us what else you noticed ?

 

Glen

[GAJ52]

Nate

 

I have just made another Fast Mission and this time my Wingman was is 'Spread' formation out to my right, well clear of my aircraft.

 

I again used Datalink to assign him a target, the result is in the track.

 

I'm sure you can understand my frustration at the outcome. If you can see anything else I'm doing wrong please let me know.

 

Glen

 

EDIT : I must admit I have had a lot more success in getting my wingman to attack targets using a 'Spread' formation, I'm still getting Rejoins but fewer than before.

Failed Attack2.trk

Edited April 5, 2013 by GAJ52

[Nate--IRL--]

No please don't get the impression that I'm saying nothing is wrong, there clearly is. I'll check out the second track, thanks for uploading it.

 

Nate

[Pizzicato]

I was hoping for a bit more support on this one.

 

If we don't all cry out that Blackshark still has big problems then I'm sure ED will concentrate their resources on the new stuff like FC3 and just let the dust build up on this great simulation of the Blackshark.

 

Agreed all three points, i.e.

 

 

1. The wingman AI is horribly... inconsistent. I posted about it myself a few weeks back: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=103013
   
2. ED are likely to move on without addressing these issues unless they're aware that it's an ongoing frustration.
   
3. Black Shark is/was/shall be a fantastic sim. :)
   

Really happy to see positive steps being taken to address this, though. Thanks for your efforts Nate and GAJ.

[JHzlwd]

I build a lot of missions and also have some questions about AI in general. Often it is my fault in understanding just what it is they are trying to emulate. When you do find out, the action then sometimes seems more reasonable. We could do with some documentation concerning what to expect in various situations. For example, I sometimes find an armed vehicle, such as a tank, will simply stop at a certain waypoint and do nothing even though there are targets nearby. He won't move until you whack him with something, then suddenly he gets it into his head to be aggressive and kill someone. There are many more examples. Right now I am struggling with my squad of paratroopers who although designated "Excellent" will not fire a single shot while enemy infantry only "Good" slaughter them. It's horrible to watch from a safe distance. Maybe Emile Arnaud got into their heads ;-) (He was the 19th century pacifist.)

Edited April 6, 2013 by JHzlwd
Spelling errors in original