How to overcome guilt in military simulation

[upupandaway]

Pop-culture? yes! But Smith has a point!

 

Take a shower every day so the machines don´t kill you?

 

I´m sorry, but I really don´t think the Titanic is a suitable comparison to modern western society.

The concept of good and evil (and thus the resuliting concept of guilt) and especially their projection on nature, society or maybe even human nature itself are nothing but human inventions. This is not meant in any apologetic sense or to justify misdoings, but many of the principles that define our sense of individuality and responsability towards society are applicable only under such "ideal" conditions and may be less compatible with "reality" elsewhere.

Just try to think of the universe as a deterministic one and everthing is going the way it was always supposed to (leaving aside any probabilistic aspects in our view of nature) :) Enjoy the ride!

[swift]

Thanks for your genuinely comments of encouragement, it helps me deal with my small rift between my beliefs and how I spend my free time.

 

Maybe 'guilt' is not the right word in this particular case to describe my exacts feelings (lost in translation ;)). Let's summarize and say that, somewhere in my mind, I got that little betty voice whispering "this is not right" that spoils the fun.

 

Besides that I love planes and flying in general, what motivates me the most to get involved in modern military simulation is the technical challenge that provide learning sophisticated and realistic systems.

 

Millions of people believe that we're immortal beings having a human experience. Well, I'm skeptic about it, I tend to think that we're violent monkeys with computers that don't have a clue about almost nothing (and that includes you haha). For personal reasons, I believe that whatever you put in your mind permeates your daily life. This may sound a little cryptic but, don't undestimate the power of your mind.

[Speed]

Unfortunately I don't share your enthusiasm about our species. In my opinion the sooner we'll disapear the better it will be for any form of life on this planet.

 

So that they can.... what? Continue to circle unthinkingly around a star until the next mass extinction? Or die off completely in 500 million years when the Sun finally gets too hot for the Earth's climate feedback systems to stabilize? Intelligence is the only way a biological system can survive in the very long run.

 

Obviously, you have a value system that doesn't value intelligence and self-awareness much. Keep in mind that without intelligence, value systems do not even exist. The universe has no way of knowing that it is even alive.

 

I do think we're doomed for some radical changes... our current population and civilization is obviously not sustainable.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Speed

[BIGNEWY]

Two things

 

 

Make one of these hats, to be safe

 

and remember

 

[danilop]

That is weapons grade baloneyum.

 

The Nazi regime was based upon exclusion of certain "impure" (or however they would define it in their doctrine) groups of humans as well as oppression and fear. Violence didn't just "happen" in the regime, it was instrumentalized, just as was fear of denunciation.

 

Culture can never thrive fully in a regime that is oppressive, in fact, while certain artists were raised for being loyal to the regime, those that weren't faced forced labor or death. So please, do us all a favor and get a clue. ;)

 

Edit: Oh and btw., godwined. :doh:

 

Agree - you missed my point completely, though. Maybe it didn't come through as intended?

 

I wrote that Nazis came to power in one of the most developed country in the continental Europe and World at the time. It was not some 3rd World country in the Balkans, Africa or Asia. That's a historical fact.

 

What a load of rubbish!! ;)

 

Behavior is a result of the environment, humans are not violent "by nature".

 

:)

 

Are yo aware that Nazis had the most developed society at the time - culturally, economically, scientifically, industrially ... the best "environment" possible

 

And sadistic,cold and calculated violence still happened.

 

Think about it! ;)

 

As far as godwinning go - I don't get it.

 

Why the other atrocities in human history are somehow regarded as more politically correct to write about online? In a thread which has a violence and its implication on society as a main topic, sooner or later you'll get references to Nazi regime. Why? Because it's one of the better examples of humans misbehaving on a large scale. It's a perfect example what are we capable off in a negative way.

 

Culture can never thrive fully in a regime that is oppressive, in fact, while certain artists were raised for being loyal to the regime, those that weren't faced forced labor or death. So please, do us all a favor and get a clue.

 

Hmmmm :hmm: .... It's way OT, but the best anti-war, pro-humanity works of art and literature were made by people who were severely prosecuted in totalitarian regimes and made it through. Too many to mention ... so I respectfully and strongly disagree with you on this one.

 

Regards! :)

Edited January 13, 2013 by danilop

[Eight Ball]

So that they can.... what? Continue to circle unthinkingly around a star until the next mass extinction? Or die off completely in 500 million years when the Sun finally gets too hot for the Earth's climate feedback systems to stabilize? Intelligence is the only way a biological system can survive in the very long run.

 

Obviously, you have a value system that doesn't value intelligence and self-awareness much. Keep in mind that without intelligence, value systems do not even exist. The universe has no way of knowing that it is even alive.

 

I do think we're doomed for some radical changes... our current population and civilization is obviously not sustainable.

 

The thing I value the most is life. I mean life in the sense of a "natural force". The Earth is hosting a trememdous amount of life form. If you look around us, as far as we were able to see (don't forget when know the space better then our own oceans) we haven't been able to find even the smallest, simpliest form of life anywhere else.

 

Life miht be something quite common in the universe but in our neighbourhood it seems that only the Earth is hosting it.

Almost all scientifics agree that the rate of species loss is greater now than at any time in human history, with extinctions occurring at rates hundreds of times higher than normal extinctions rate.

 

I disagree when you say that Intelligence is the only way a biological system can survive in the very long run.

That's not true. Some of the oldest life form of this planet can hardly considered intelligent It's estimated that the horseshoe crab have been around for 500 millions of years.

They were use as fishing baits and were on the edge of extinction until we discovered the amazing properties of its blood.

 

I know what I'm saying can make me looks like an extremely depressed person but it's not the case. I don't judge our behaviour as being good or bad, I just think we are stupid but I'm fine with that, I accepted it long time ago.

 

Make one of these hats, to be safe

I already have one of those :D

[sobek]

I wrote that Nazis came to power in one of the most developed country in the continental Europe and World at the time. It was not some 3rd World country in the Balkans, Africa or Asia. That's a historical fact.

 

As far as historical facts go, Germany went through years of hardship because of the global economic crisis and the related unemployment and famine. There was no thriving at that point in time, there were people busting their behinds to get by.

 

As far as godwinning go - I don't get it.

 

Godwin is all about wearing the Nazi analogy off. The more you use it in mundane analogies, the more blunt you become towards the subject.

[danilop]

As far as historical facts go, Germany went through years of hardship because of the global economic crisis and the related unemployment and famine. There was no thriving at that point in time, there were people busting their behinds to get by.

 

The hardship was global in '30s and relatively speaking, it was still one of the most developed countries at the time. And please, look in which context I used it - just to argue the above-mentioned statement that negative human behavior somehow always depend on the environment and that we are all good & nice. Just wanted to illustrate that in every single person on the Earth there is yin&yang, heaven&hell, love&hate, good&bad.

 

However, you're right that the worst in us always surface in a time of hardship. :thumbup:

Edited January 13, 2013 by danilop

[Madone]

Just wanted to illustrate that in every single person on the Earth there is yin&yang, heaven&hell, love&hate, good&bad.

 

For that is some rules from the society, what about living your life with your rules? :D

[Rusty_M]

In response to the OP, I don't experience guilt, but I do frequently find it hard to understand myself at times. I'm a pacifist and abhor violence, yet I'm obsessed by controlled aggression. I used to love practicing martial arts, and I love learning the A-10 and Black Shark and finding out military facts. I love violent games. None of these would exist without genuine violence, which I hate.

 

I don't understand it sometimes.

[PeterP]

In response to the OP, I don't experience guilt, but I do frequently find it hard to understand myself at times. I'm a pacifist and abhor violence, yet I'm obsessed by controlled aggression. I used to love practicing martial arts, and I love learning the A-10 and Black Shark and finding out military facts. I love violent games. None of these would exist without genuine violence, which I hate.

 

I don't understand it sometimes.

 

 

I can also fully understand the Op.

and I'm also in the same boat as Rusty_M.

 

I'm just so fascinated by the involved avionics, the technologies behind it and the most sophisticated Flight-Modelling.

 

Well, the military has always the nicest toys,

So I'm stuck to fly DCS.

:)

 

For me it is not about shooting something .

I use DCS as a intellectual challenge that needs all parts of my brain and senses simultaneously to master it.

 

But I have to admit:

I also have sometimes moments where I hold in and try to imagine how I would react in a real combat environment and than I also questioning myself "what the hell I'm doing here?"...

 

I would probably turn 180°.

Edited January 16, 2013 by PeterP

[104th_Cobra]

Hola Swift. I knew it will be only a matter of time to some thread evolved in a discussion like this one.

Don't worry about your feelings because your sorrows are genuine. Real War is something the Man can be ashamed off. It is our nature to fight each others, even if there aren't valid reasons like danger of loss of life. We can kill for the simple annihilation of the other group of individuals, that aren't in our group; Man is the more violent animal species. We loose our humanity when we don't feel any compassion for the other men and start to hate all the others, thinking about superiority and inferiorizing the others: it's a strong sign of fascism that we must learn to recognize and avoid.

Young males join the military in a epoch of their life when they are in needing to affirm themselves. It's an rite of passage for manhood. I'm not saying that the military class in a society are dispensable. In a utopy world maybe, not in the real one: we can avoid violence but in a lot of moments in History, societies had to struggle in face of violence they didn't ask for. And that's why i'm totally against professional armies, they are easier to control and used for ethical wrong reasons.

Swift, think that this is sport of tactics, sometimes called a sport of Kings. We can be Humans after that.

[FanBoy2006.01]

@Swift.

 

I just stumbled on this topic.

 

I want to add my two cents; but I have not read all the posts.

So I don't know if it had been said before.

 

I do not believe that violence is all bad. There is such a thing as contextual violence.

 

I also do not understand how one could say he/she is a pacifist. The vast majority of us all do not go around harming others. Clearly that makes us pacifists.

 

But does that mean you will be a pacifist in all situations? No. If you see an innocent person being harmed, would you not do something to stop it?

I am talking about an legal action here (Non-violent or violent.), like calling the police or even self-defense.

 

This bring me to simulation games. I try to act within the law when I play these games.

 

Nowadays most military games (Simulation level or not.) punish you in some form when you break the law.

 

To me role playing games and other action games (Like Hitman.) are much worse. Here your side is the right side no matter what you do.

 

I was in the military (SANDF) and I do have a little knowledge about military law.

Violence is a terrible thing; but if no law-abiding citizens act violently in a lawful manner (Like the police.) when warranted, society would collapse.

 

I have read allot about wars over the years. I personally have seen many causes in the past which I would have been willing to go to war for.

 

Also, in simulation games you train to use certain equipment in that game. If you look at it like that then you would realize that it really doesn't matter on whose side you are on.

 

Why? In Red Flag for instance there is aggressor squadrons that "fight" against their own military as a training aid.

 

If in a simulation you are playing on a side you do not agree with, it serves an instrumental purpose to yourself and others (In the case of multilayer.) beyond entertainment.

 

You said the thing that bothers you is basically "hurting" others.

 

"When I see an armored vehicle on fire, I can not stop thinking about the crew inside."

 

Then I suggest you should get a "mental trigger". That means: At what point will I go over and use "lethal force" in-game.

 

Well for me it is the same a the law of my country.

 

Think of it this way: He got a weapon. He is coming my way and he is willing to use it on me and others.

 

In the case of military transport, comms, etc: They are aiding their side by supplying their combatants with the means of killing our people.

 

In the case of medical vehicles: They take care of their injured. Under law I can not fire at them.

Etc.

 

Lastly. Do not think in the terms of: It is either him or me.

 

Rather think that if you do not stop him, others will get hurt.

 

So: It is either him or my friends.