Missile Dynamics - A discussion

[Pilotasso]

ED gave us access to beta as opposed to a prolonged waiting period, so bear in mind things are to remain unfixed for some time yet.

[Teknetinium]

Do you not even remember what was written by your own hand *one page ago*?

 

 

 

Tek, you fail to maintain a cogent argument over the course of two pages. That's not a supposed failure of writing in a foreign language; that's an illegitimate line of argument, in which you knowingly choose to obfuscate your line of challenge in an attempt to maintain some semblance of respectability.

 

"Oh, I want this!"

You're refuted.

"I didn't say I wanted that- I want this!"

You're refuted again.

"You're not following what I'm saying- I actually want for this (the first argument), and if you don't give it to me, you're biased/political/BS!"

Lather.

Rinse.

Repeat.

 

Summary: there's no point in conversing/discussing/debating or arguing with you, because you are unwilling to own up to your stated contention from one page to the next; it's like trying to catch water with a rake.

 

Or an opponent in real life with an R-27.

 

I done here until we see 1.2.3. I have told my point of view, and I have all the right to do so. if you find this pointless don't engage in the conversation.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Teknetinium

[alexej21]

Yesterday we flew 3h battle 4xSu27 vs 4 F15c

only R27R, R27T, R73, AIM7 and AIM9M

Perfectly balanced. Do not underestimate SU27 with optoelectronical system and mostly AWACS Datalink. Protecting of A50 seems to be the critical issue now. I looking forward to have the patch which will fix datalink for other players.

 

Today I tested difference between radar mods in SU27 - HI aspect, MED, ILV

 

It seems like there is a difference in locking range but not so much. Does someone switch these mode in battle or you just keep it on ILV?

 

It seems like SU27's radar is VERY sensitive on elevation difference, much more than F15c. :book:

[SFAL]

AIM-120 vs R-77

 

Hi all

 

 

As the title suggests i like to raise the dillema of the present overkill of the aim120.

 

i had a go with the f15 today un mp and found that i had a 90% kill rate.

 

thsts 20 missiles fired and 17 hits...

 

with the R77 ....less then 40%

 

 

plese ED give the russian planes an ARH that is the SAME as the aim120.

 

realism....yes yes... but what about playable.

 

on higly competativ servers like the 104th or 51st and War...we are sick and tired of getting blown out of the sky by players who can only click and kill

 

so BETTER R77 and SU27/33 that can carry it....

 

 

PLEASE......PLEASE.....PLEASE

 

and before anyone says its down to the pilot skill... give me a friken break.

 

Ask ANY player who is a REAL LIFE PILOT.... they will tell the same thing...

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

:)

[alexej21]

Hi,

R77 are the best on Rusian side. R27 ER or ET doesn't anything. It is even better to get closer and send R73.

 

The key is to use MiG29 with R77 and be higher than enemy. Or fly very low only on infra seeker. Use AWACS and Datalink.

 

 

Keep fighting.

 

Check this picture. Result from 3,5h battle with 16 players.

 

Russia won...

Edited January 2, 2013 by alexej21

[GGTharos]

Having been testing both extensively lately, the 120 is definitely a far worse missile than the 77 in certain respects, and the 77 has its own weaknesses.

 

It is down to pilot skill, which includes knowledge. Is your lack of knowledge your fault, though? No, it isn't - the implementation details don't tend to be written up, and no one tends to tell you how to test evading missiles using various means.

 

In any case, deal with the fact that the king of BVR is the eagle. It's going to stay that way. Its capabilities there will be far better.

 

I put in a request to increase the WVR efficienty of the red birds though, because as far as FC3 goes, they should be the most dangerous opponents (ie WVR kings) there.

 

and before anyone says its down to the pilot skill... give me a friken break.

[SFAL]

Alex u are missing the point...

 

aim120 is overkill...

 

no ARH on su27/33

 

do u agree that with most people in F15s they have no clue what to do in a close engagement never mind dogfight

 

this is the result of click and kill mentalaty...

[SFAL]

The king of BVR? Emm... we will se that soon in real life...

 

Thargos... im familiar how to evade the aim120... the 6second rule etc etc... high combat turn...

 

as i said... most of the people i fly with are disillusioned with the fact that the aim120 is soooo overdone... and since they like to fly russian jets will say.... i go back to co-op or play 80s style.....

 

and one of them IS a real life mirage f1 pilot....

 

you can argue that im just throwing it out there to sound emm read better... im not... its a fact.

 

so keep puting out a request becouse the general chater on numerous TS chanels are like this

 

russian missiles are broken.... they dont track.... f this im out.... and so on...

[alexej21]

Soon in real life ?

 

I agree that R27ER are totally broken. Sometimes don't even start to home and just flying straight. Even in good firing position.

 

My point is that with MiG 29 you can face F15c and still have a good chance to kill it...

[pepin1234]

The AIM-120 is not real. the missile hit everything however is shot, even shooting down against a Su-25 ( no radar onboard ) flying at extra low altitud. The AIM-120 is around 30 % strongly using Chaff countermeasures while the russian missiles have a poor skill even shooting a R-77 radar guided. The R-27 is a heavy missile compared with the AIM-120, the R-27 have more fuel and even so shooting the R-27 at high altitud the missile lose speed so quickly. Right now in this game, the only chance have the russian birds is a strongly air defence with some S-300. Also reading how some tester teams speak here giving all the glory to the AIM-120 I keep in safe down with the combined arms. Honestly I find useless use a Su-27/Mig-29 against the F-15. Somebody here know the tom and jerry cartoons, Jerry is the AIM-120 and Tom all the rest russian ( all the punch for him ).

[SFAL]

Yep... as soon the Syrian "civil war" escalets onto a full blown regional war with Russia on one side and NATO on the other.....

 

Keep it in mind that russia has drawn a line in the sand... and thats syria...

if you think that the arab spring was a spontanious uprising... look who took over in those countries... CIA...muslim brotherhood.... CIA/MI5...

 

all these countries were soviet satelite states.... and now the bear is hungry again...

 

Pepin you are bang on.... USELESS is the right one... and yea... no tracing WHATSOEVER....

 

the only way to win is to fly in close pairs... present a single target... have the f15 lock up the lead... wait for the kill eg he is looking on the hud ... second plane to dropp altitude go thermal and kill it with 27T/ET or 73...

 

problem is... they are not always alone...

 

and we are back to sq1

Edited January 2, 2013 by SFAL

[FLANKERATOR]

R-77 is a good missile in FC3, PK will drop if you use it like a 120 because of the launch warning. TWS is on the way but until then, keep the element of surprise and fire from close range.

Beyond 15 miles, 120 has the edge over the Adder, however, the latter is much harder to evade below 8 miles.

[alexej21]

Yep... as soon the Syrian "civil war" escalets onto a full blown regional war with Russia on one side and NATO on the other.....

 

Keep it in mind that russia has drawn a line in the sand... and thats syria...

if you think that the arab spring was a spontanious uprising... look who took over in those countries... CIA...muslim brotherhood.... CIA/MI5...

 

all these countries were soviet satelite states.... and now the bear is hungry again...

 

Pepin you are bang on.... USELESS is the right one... and yea... no tracing WHATSOEVER....

 

the only way to win is to fly in close pairs... present a single target... have the f15 lock up the lead... wait for the kill eg he is looking on the hud ... second plane to dropp altitude go thermal and kill it with 27T/ET or 73...

 

problem is... they are not always alone...

 

and we are back to sq1

 

 

I don't believe to propaganda in TV, but I think that Russia stop to support Syria in last week and the war is lost...

[GGTharos]

Thargos... im familiar how to evade the aim120... the 6second rule etc etc... high combat turn...

 

Then why are you complaining?

 

as i said... most of the people i fly with are disillusioned with the fact that the aim120 is soooo overdone... and since they like to fly russian jets will say.... i go back to co-op or play 80s style.....

 

It's quite under-done.

 

and one of them IS a real life mirage f1 pilot....

 

you can argue that im just throwing it out there to sound emm read better... im not... its a fact.

 

I can, especially when the guys who use/work with the things say it's severely under-cooked (On the other hand, falcon's may just be over-cooked, but I don't know if you know the difference)

 

russian missiles are broken.... they dont track.... f this im out.... and so on...

 

Sure, just because the 120 does certain things does not mean that the Russian missiles are not broken. Or if you prefer, under-cooked.

 

Or rather, more specifically, the player-useable missiles. There are old missiles on both sides that are AI-only and those could easily be a bit over-cooked for what they are, too. Who knows.

[GGTharos]

The AIM-120 is not real. the missile hit everything however is shot, even shooting down against a Su-25 ( no radar onboard ) flying at extra low altitud.

 

The real AIM-120 hits cruise missiles flying at extra low altitude.

 

The AIM-120 is around 30 % strongly using Chaff countermeasures while the russian missiles have a poor skill even shooting a R-77 radar guided.

 

Yes, the AIM-120C is a newer missile and handles countermeasures better. There are not many ways to simulate this within the limitations of the sim.

 

The R-27 is a heavy missile compared with the AIM-120, the R-27 have more fuel and even so shooting the R-27 at high altitud the missile lose speed so quickly.

 

If you mean R-27ER, ok - it should have similar range (or actually a little better) than 120C5 in certain cases. It should outrange the 120B in almost all cases (not that I am aware of any exceptions, but they may exist). We know.

 

Also reading how some tester teams speak here giving all the glory to the AIM-120 I keep in safe down with the combined arms.

 

Maybe you should stop giving it all the glory in complaining then. You're playing a beta version where it has been said that there is a new missile flight model which is still being tuned. You know, as in a work in progress.

 

Honestly I find useless use a Su-27/Mig-29 against the F-15. Somebody here know the tom and jerry cartoons, Jerry is the AIM-120 and Tom all the rest russian ( all the punch for him ).

 

If you were flying a real Su-27S or MiG-29A/C vs. a mid to late 90's F-15C you would probably not be a happy pilot unless you could achieve ambushes often.

[pepin1234]

The real AIM-120 hits cruise missiles flying at extra low altitude.

 

 

 

Yes, the AIM-120C is a newer missile and handles countermeasures better. There are not many ways to simulate this within the limitations of the sim.

 

 

 

If you mean R-27ER, ok - it should have similar range (or actually a little better) than 120C5 in certain cases. It should outrange the 120B in almost all cases (not that I am aware of any exceptions, but they may exist). We know.

 

 

 

Maybe you should stop giving it all the glory in complaining then. You're playing a beta version where it has been said that there is a new missile flight model which is still being tuned. You know, as in a work in progress.

 

 

 

If you were flying a real Su-27S or MiG-29A/C vs. a mid to late 90's F-15C you would probably not be a happy pilot unless you could achieve ambushes often.

 

 

Here we go. pay attention!!

[GGTharos]

You pay attention. :)

[pepin1234]

The real AIM-120 hits cruise missiles flying at extra low altitude.

 

Yes especially that you said just before . By the way, the cruise missile have a TWS, Chaff dispenser and evade the AIM-120 at low altitude? No way guys:music_whistling:

[GGTharos]

Who said you can evade a 120 just because you have chaff? Or any modern radar guided missile for that matter. Low altitude doesn't make chaff magical, on the other hand smarter missiles can and do reduce its efficiency, some to the point where it can be said that they are virtually ignoring the chaff. The AIM-120 is one such missile. Will we know the exact algorithms that these missiles use to do such things? No, we can only speculate, which is why at the moment it is modeled with a simple stochastic process. Of course, it could still be modeled better, and there is certainly a report for that.

 

All you've told me is that this poor Su-25 pilot doesn't know how to evade a radar-guided missile. If he did, why'd he get hit? You can definitely evade ANY missile in FC if you do it right, and this in turn tells me that you probably don't know how to evade that missile either, otherwise you wouldn't be complaining about it as much.

 

What's next, should I start complaining that I don't get a warning from R-27ET's so they kill me?

Edited January 2, 2013 by GGTharos

[SFAL]

yes FC3 is in beate.... yes its wip... thats why we are giving feedback... and not complaining... but as with the truth in all... its a mtter of preception

 

here is something to read http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/man/uswpns/air/fighter/f15.html#f15c

 

 

qute " The US Air Force claims the F-15C is in several respects inferior to, or at best equal to, the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-35/37, Rafale, and EF-2000, which are variously superior in acceleration, maneuverability, engine thrust, rate of climb, avionics, firepower, radar signature, or range. Although the F-15C and Su-27P series are similar in many categories, the Su-27 can outperform the F-15C at both long and short ranges. In long-range encounters, with its superiorr radar the Su-27 can launch a missile before the F-15C does, so from a purely kinematic standpoint, the Russian fighters outperform the F-15C in the beyond-visual-range fight. The Su-35 phased array radar is superior to the APG-63 Doppler radar in both detection range and tracking capabilities. Additionally, the Su-35 propulsion system increases the aircraft’s maneuverability with thrust vectoring nosel...."

 

and it starts with.... the us airforce claims....

 

one more thing... f15 only seen combat with under trained outgunned opponents....it has not seen combat with flankers nor migs which were piloted by EXPERIENCED pilots....

 

and yes it can kill cruise missiles.... and yes those have EWR...chaff... AND they manuver like jets....sure ...

 

just like santaklaus has the easter bunny as pet craping out eggs with little talking deers in them

Edited January 2, 2013 by SFAL

[GGTharos]

But why do I need to read the FAS site? I have the F-15's weapons employment manual. The real one. It's old, but it's the best I can get. Same for the flanker and mig.

[SESova]

My propossitions are next:

1) No F15 at servers.

2) Start competition for best mod for missiles and planes flight model.Wining mod is goin to be installed on the server of the 51-st and we are going to play as we shud be.We have to do it,becouse ED wont.

 

F15 pilots are free to play at thair own playground agains each other and having great fun.

[Pilotasso]

Hi all

 

 

As the title suggests i like to raise the dillema of the present overkill of the aim120.

 

i had a go with the f15 today un mp and found that i had a 90% kill rate.

 

thsts 20 missiles fired and 17 hits...

 

with the R77 ....less then 40%

 

 

plese ED give the russian planes an ARH that is the SAME as the aim120.

 

realism....yes yes... but what about playable.

 

on higly competativ servers like the 104th or 51st and War...we are sick and tired of getting blown out of the sky by players who can only click and kill

 

so BETTER R77 and SU27/33 that can carry it....

 

 

PLEASE......PLEASE.....PLEASE

 

and before anyone says its down to the pilot skill... give me a friken break.

 

Ask ANY player who is a REAL LIFE PILOT.... they will tell the same thing...

 

 

Since this is beta only, all imput after claims of bugs or broken features necessitate tracks. Please do.

[SFAL]

Why? becouse its ...as you said... OLD

 

and maybe... maybe you learn something new.... if you want to....

 

also becouse this is a disscussion that is based on a GAME that tries to reflect reallity...

 

therefore reallity seems to be what we think it is.... if you decide that the manuals that you have are the BEST and thats it.... well... than for you it is. As for the rest it might not be...

 

 

Sova looks like you have something going in your brain.... i like the 51st... and please implement the aim120 ban as on other pvp servers....

Edited January 2, 2013 by SFAL