Missile Dynamics - A discussion

[Pilotasso]

 

therefore reallity seems to be what we think it is.... if you decide that the manuals that you have are the BEST and thats it.... well... than for you it is. As for the rest it might not be...

 

thats odd, you accuse people who have data that they are making up but your version of the truth is more credible without a shred of evidence :D

 

Sova looks like you have something going in your brain.... i like the 51st... and please implement the aim120 ban as on other pvp servers....

 

Someone is using his brain, but I dont think its you. :D

[159th_Viper]

As for the rest it might not be...

 

If you want to contradict information that is based on manuals and operator feedback/guidelines then you had better be prepared to back up your allegations with manuals/information of your own, if you want to be taken seriously, that is.

 

But that aside, I would honestly like to hear from you and all others as to why you are actually taking the time to formulate such eloquent moans, groans and whining when we have repeatedly stated that the missiles are currently BETA and a W.I.P. The Bug list even reflects this.

 

Honestly, why?

[G-Lock91]

^^ AMEN!! :thumbup:

[pepin1234]

My propossitions are next:

1) No F15 at servers.

2) Start competition for best mod for missiles and planes flight model.Wining mod is goin to be installed on the server of the 51-st and we are going to play as we shud be.We have to do it,becouse ED wont.

 

F15 pilots are free to play at thair own playground agains each other and having great fun.

 

+1

 

 

Last night after talking with my friends about the super AIM-120:

 

[Krebs20]

Am I the only VP that thinks all missiles are way to easy to evade? I mean all of them. FC3 is in beta. Im finding all engagements are way to easy to spoof missiles and merge. Maybe that is experience playing.

[wilky510]

yes FC3 is in beate.... yes its wip... thats why we are giving feedback... and not complaining... but as with the truth in all... its a mtter of preception

 

here is something to read http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/man/uswpns/air/fighter/f15.html#f15c

 

 

qute " The US Air Force claims the F-15C is in several respects inferior to, or at best equal to, the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-35/37, Rafale, and EF-2000, which are variously superior in acceleration, maneuverability, engine thrust, rate of climb, avionics, firepower, radar signature, or range. Although the F-15C and Su-27P series are similar in many categories, the Su-27 can outperform the F-15C at both long and short ranges. In long-range encounters, with its superiorr radar the Su-27 can launch a missile before the F-15C does, so from a purely kinematic standpoint, the Russian fighters outperform the F-15C in the beyond-visual-range fight. The Su-35 phased array radar is superior to the APG-63 Doppler radar in both detection range and tracking capabilities. Additionally, the Su-35 propulsion system increases the aircraft’s maneuverability with thrust vectoring nosel...."

 

and it starts with.... the us airforce claims....

 

one more thing... f15 only seen combat with under trained outgunned opponents....it has not seen combat with flankers nor migs which were piloted by EXPERIENCED pilots....

 

and yes it can kill cruise missiles.... and yes those have EWR...chaff... AND they manuver like jets....sure ...

 

just like santaklaus has the easter bunny as pet craping out eggs with little talking deers in them

You compared a highly upgraded Su-27 (the Su-35) vs an early F-15C...? You do realize the remaining F-15's are getting AESA's?

[Pilotasso]

Am I the only VP that thinks all missiles are way to easy to evade? I mean all of them. FC3 is in beta. Im finding all engagements are way to easy to spoof missiles and merge. Maybe that is experience playing.

 

Your not the only one, I think they are too slow (all of the missiles), I evaded 120's from another F-15 the very first time I got shot at in multiplayer. I orthogonal rolled them despite being sucessfully ambushed. I droped the guy seconds later as he over shot me at high speed. He should have won that engagement.

 

 

It was so unchallenging I stopped flying and now I wait for following patches to see how it goes.

[SFAL]

Sure they do....

 

but the russians are not telling whats up their sleve.. :)

 

as i stated before.... please make it more playable... thats all :) and all the moaning and whining concerned.... that is feedback...

as we all wait for the next patch/upgrade please litsen to the whining....and all that...

 

it might be a case of over sensitivity :)

 

i will leave it as it is.... we see how much moaning we will do after the patch

[wilky510]

Sure they do....

 

but the russians are not telling whats up their sleve.. :)

 

as i stated before.... please make it more playable... thats all :) and all the moaning and whining concerned.... that is feedback...

as we all wait for the next patch/upgrade please litsen to the whining....and all that...

 

it might be a case of over sensitivity :)

 

i will leave it as it is.... we see how much moaning we will do after the patch

They are. reread Vipers most recent post in this thread. You can also look at the patch notes for 1.2.3.

 

Here's one from the change logs for 1.2.3: AIM-120 data adjusted. Lift and drag.

 

Most likely a nerf.

[Mandrake5]

Please for heaven's sake don't neuter the aim120 in future patches like in FC2, keep it as realistic as the available data allows, even if it affects 'gameplay'. It is after all a force multiplier designed to outperform Russian missiles.

 

And after all red jets have better radar and stealthy IR missiles, which can easily win if red pilots use a wingman as diversion. Adapt and survive!

[Pilotasso]

They are. reread Vipers most recent post in this thread. You can also look at the patch notes for 1.2.3.

 

Here's one from the change logs for 1.2.3: AIM-120 data adjusted. Lift and drag.

 

Most likely a nerf.

 

Not at all.

If you read the FC3 bug thread youll see one of the items listed is excessive speed loss for missiles.

 

If you think they need a nerf, then it is likely that its you in need of more training.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Pilotasso

[wilky510]

Not at all.

If you read the FC3 bug thread youll see one of the items there in listed is excess speed loss for missiles.

 

If you think they need a nerf, then it is likely that its you in need of more training.

I don't think they need a nerf. I fly F-15C's bro. I'm just tired of hearing all the whining about the freaking thing. Eventually the whining will make the missile get nerfed.

[Pilotasso]

FC2 already demonstrated a trend in the contrary. These missiles are going to work with fast jet modules at DCS quality level and the work for this is being laid out right now. I.e. no artificial nerfs if realism is the driving force behind those products.

[Pigmachine]

as unscientific as it gets, but wikipedia is our hi-tech god.. and god ain't wrong.. is he?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMRAAM

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-77

[104th_Cobra]

Here we go again :D

 

People, accept that the developer is using the available data to model the missile behavior. If the contrary is true, bring your data to the table.

 

Right now, from my tests with SP and Tacview, the R-77 and R-27ER accelerate until more then 6-8km with a maximum speed around 4000km/h. The maximum speed of the AIM-120 is around 5300km/h. For the Fulcrum's jockeys: the optimum range to a R-77 launch is around 25km, considering equal altitudes and a launch speed around 800-1000km/h. All the missiles are dragging and lousing speed when maneuvering.

 

I reviewed the tracks. Taking account for the different launch ASL, here are the rough numbers:

 

 

[TABLE]Missile Distance until max TAS max TAS ASL at launch

 

AIM-7M 11 km 4900 km/h 10000 m

R-27R 4 km 4400 km/h 9000 m

R-27ER 8 km 4400 km/h 8000 m

AIM-120B 8 km 5200 km/h 11000 m

R-77 5 km 4000 km/h 5700 m

AIM-120C 8 km 5300 km/h 8000 m

[/TABLE]

Edited January 3, 2013 by Xpto
Before getting lynched I reviewed the tracks :)

[Cali]

 

one more thing... f15 only seen combat with under trained outgunned opponents....it has not seen combat with flankers nor migs which were piloted by EXPERIENCED pilots....

 

 

There is a reason for that. Also you don't know what you are talking about with this stuff.

 

My propossitions are next:

1) No F15 at servers.

2) Start competition for best mod for missiles and planes flight model.Wining mod is goin to be installed on the server of the 51-st and we are going to play as we shud be.We have to do it,becouse ED wont.

 

F15 pilots are free to play at thair own playground agains each other and having great fun.

 

This isn't a good idea, why limit what people can fly in a jet that LOTS of people like to fly? You can see the most populated servers don't limit fighters like that, if they did people will just go play somewhere else. The 51st didn't have the Su-27 mod with R-77's on their server when others did

[Wolf One]

As capable as the F-15C is, which I find admirable, I have to agree with SFAL just on this particular point, in that the F-15C, undeniably, and almost certainly has been used largely in scenarios against hardware that is suboptimal or not current, in an environment with less sophisticated communications, support or logistics, and likely IADS systems that are less formidable than they could be. Awesome machine nonetheless.

[GGTharos]

The difference between Russians and Iraqi's flying those fighters would be that the F-15C would have to actually deal with its projected exchange ratio ... ie the predicted loss of one F-15C for every 4 flankers. I forget whose numbers those were, but it isn't important - that's how these things are counted. It's never really a case of 'bah they are n00bs we won't lose a single plane' ... you fight like you train, and these crews trained to fight the best enemy they could meet out there which was at that point in time the Russian VVS, or possibly the Chinese.

 

Even going into Iraq the F-15C crews were briefed (IIRC, and don't quote me on this) to expect 20%-30% losses to enemy aircraft and SAMs. Turns out they over-estimated the Iraqi military or under-estimated their brass' affinity for bribes or something.

[Cali]

As capable as the F-15C is, which I find admirable, I have to agree with SFAL just on this particular point, in that the F-15C, undeniably, and almost certainly has been used largely in scenarios against hardware that is suboptimal or not current, in an environment with less sophisticated communications, support or logistics, and likely IADS systems that are less formidable than they could be. Awesome machine nonetheless.

 

Is that their fault? What would happen to another jet, would it be any different. Air superiority is key to a lot of things, you own the air, you own everything basically. IADS system would get destroyed, along with communications. It really doesn't matter what SFAL thinks or says, war isn't fair, it's not balanced, your object is to stop the other side....meet your objectives. If you have the better weapons.....so be it. Didn't Iraq have the 4th biggest army in the world? If someone attacks a less defended country and think the world is gonna sit back and do nothing....good luck.

[104th_Cobra]

The fact is that in the first night of Operation Desert Storm, the Iraqi Air Force loose their Early Warning radars, followed by extensive Offensive Anti-air warfare. "By the book".

Edited January 3, 2013 by Xpto

[Wolf One]

I'm not saying that SFAL is a military mastermind, but he may be making a point with some underlying validity worth at least some mitigating consideration, which might be applicable particularly in other theaters of operation.

[Cali]

There is no point, we don't know what would happen if they fought other aircraft. People can say whatever they want to, until two aircraft meet in the air, you don't know who will win 100% of the time. Like I said, is it their fault they fought those aircraft? Maybe the other countries are smarter then trying to fight against someone that is bigger, has better weapons and training.

[104th_Cobra]

Politics apart, retaining that the weapons systems are with similar characteristics, the fight will pend for the TEAM which has better training. Someone referenced, in the Russian thread about missiles in FC3, that the minimum unit will ever be the pair :)

[willzah1313]

Regardless of nerf this and fix that, it sure is fun flying against all u I this sweet evolving sim. It makes it that much sweeter to get a splash with a supposedly less capable machine anyway.

[59th_Buncsi]

But why do I need to read the FAS site? I have the F-15's weapons employment manual. The real one. It's old, but it's the best I can get. Same for the flanker and mig.

 

Can you upload the MiG's? I would compare with mine...