Missile Dynamics - A discussion

[GGTharos]

What are you say about cars man??

 

Read what I wrote again and you will understand about the cars. It has to do with your own post. If you still don't understand, I'll go into detail.

 

USAMFTL say he was in the USAF and also the 120 can hit anything for 2 km, and I say the accuracy of the 120 must being not 100% because the missile can get the match 3,5 when approach the target in this phase. He was a USAF former saying his opinion,

 

He is not giving you his opinion. He told you what the missile can do. Like a calculus professor will tell you how to compute a derivative. It isn't opinion, it is a fact. Perhaps you're trying to be pedantic and have him say that you must fire the missile in the WEZ, and I would say 'well, why would you fire it outside of the WEZ?'.

 

]and I owner a SAMSUNG Galaxys, do you like know my opinion about wich one is better betwen the SAMSUNG and the Iphone?? That way I say the 120 should be downgraded in this phase, because right now is too much good and thats not possible at all.

 

Yeah, you can say whatever you want, that's right, it's your opinion. USAMFTL is giving facts instead, so I'll count what he says as valuable information, not opinion. Do you understand now?

[159th_Viper]

That way I say the 120 should be downgraded in this phase, because right now is too much good and thats not possible at all.

 

Proof is needed.

 

Your opinion, though valued, means nothing when it comes to changing data/modelling in-SIM.

[G-Lock91]

I think by this metric, your opinion is entirely worthless. There is simply no reason for the devs to consider anything that you suggest.

 

Your opinion, though valued, means nothing when it comes to changing data/modelling in-SIM.

 

Haha!

[Alfa]

Thanks :) .

 

Not AIM120 but AIM7 Loft logic and cueing.

 

[USAFMTL]

What are you say about cars man?? USAMFTL say he was in the USAF and also the 120 can hit anything for 2 km, and I say the accuracy of the 120 must being not 100% because the missile can get the match 3,5 when approach the target in this phase. He was an USAF former saying his opinion, and I owner a SAMSUNG Galaxys, do you like know my opinion about wich one is better betwen the SAMSUNG and the Iphone?? That way I say the 120 should be downgraded in this phase, because right now is too much good and thats not possible at all.

 

First its USAFMTL.... :)

2nd this is not an opinion. If you can read I said I did missile maintenance my first 4 years. I started working ICBM's and ended up on A2A types. (thanks to a screw up at AFPC but that's another story all together). So my experience is not an opinion.

 

I own a Galaxy S3 too, but I never worked on them, so anything I say about is my opinion. See the difference? But there is no convincing you.

[Teknetinium]

Proof is needed.

 

Your opinion, though valued, means nothing when it comes to changing data/modelling in-SIM.

 

 

Non of you have any prov to start whit,

Ers shold be faster the AIM-120, its not.

aim-120 should not have longer legs against not maneuvering target.

And I have whit al respect my own opinion that aim-120 is way to good, and was even better, even then you were not happy!!!

 

Its so funny where can you provide me whit data that AIM-120 preforms better then R-77?

I already made some point about the RL experience compare to sim, where you need to make both parts respect their weapons, witch is not the case now, AIM-120 is way to good. You said your self GG that it had way to long legs. Aim-120 has no prove on how good it preforming against, maneuvering, chaffing and jamming bandit. So ED could do anything they like whit missiles since non of us know how it would work against Russian countermeasures. Use that factor and make the sim better not worse whit All your bias propaganda.

 

And its even funnier how you claim that aim-120 work nearly as good as r-73 in close range, where the missile is three times heavier and faster,

Everything just to keep the advantages even thou they are not realistic.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Teknetinium

[GGTharos]

Non of you have any prov to start whit,

Ers shold be faster the AIM-120, its not.

aim-120 should not have longer legs against not maneuvering target.

And I have whit al respect my own opinion that aim-120 is way to good, and was even better, even then you were not happy!!!

 

Well the 120 may or may not be faster than the ER. It depends on the version too, right now the 120 seems to have far too big an advantage ... but whether it's faster or not right now is just your opinion. It could go either way.

 

Its so funny where can you provide me whit data that AIM-120 preforms better then R-77?

 

The R-77 is about equivalent to the AIM-120B. And yes we have that data. We won't necessarily give it up. You can argue with me all you want, but ED makes the final decisions, not you or me. If they consider the data legitimate they act on it.

 

I already made some point about the RL experience compare to sim, where you need to make both parts respect their weapons, witch is not the case now, AIM-120 is way to good.

 

Not at all, it's way too dumb.

 

You said your self GG that it had way to long legs. Aim-120 has no prove on how good it preforming against, maneuvering, chaffing and jamming bandit.

 

Actually as far as we know it does. The details of a lot of encounters were the 120 was used in were not specified.

 

So ED could do anything they like whit missiles since non of us know how it would work against Russian countermeasures. Use that factor and make the sim better not worse whit All your bias propaganda.

 

The propaganda here is yours I'm afraid to say. We've always looked out to make sure the missiles are modeled as faithfully as possible to existing data regarding the real deal with some slant on trying to make sure they also forced correct behavior. The only thing you can complain about right now, really, is that they gave the 120 too long legs.

 

And its even funnier how you claim that aim-120 work nearly as good as r-73 in close range, where the missile is three times heavier and faster,

Everything just to keep the advantages even thou they are not realistic.

 

Who claimed this? Anyway, it obviously wouldn't since it doesn't have TVC. The 120 will work just fine at shorter ranges provided you launch it inside its WEZ. For short range engagements its WEZ will be narrower/smaller than the R-73. I don't know if you understand what I'm trying to say.

[USAFMTL]

Non of you have any prov to start whit,

Ers shold be faster the AIM-120, its not.

aim-120 should not have longer legs against not maneuvering target.

And I have whit al respect my own opinion that aim-120 is way to good, and was even better, even then you were not happy!!!

 

Its so funny where can you provide me whit data that AIM-120 preforms better then R-77?

I already made some point about the RL experience compare to sim, where you need to make both parts respect their weapons, witch is not the case now, AIM-120 is way to good. You said your self GG that it had way to long legs. Aim-120 has no prove on how good it preforming against, maneuvering, chaffing and jamming bandit. So ED could do anything they like whit missiles since non of us know how it would work against Russian countermeasures. Use that factor and make the sim better not worse whit All your bias propaganda.

 

And its even funnier how you claim that aim-120 work nearly as good as r-73 in close range, where the missile is three times heavier and faster,

Everything just to keep the advantages even thou they are not realistic.

 

I never said the AIM-120 is as good as the R-73 at close range. I said it can engage at 2km. I know about the CM rejection the AIM-120 has. I do know the R-77 is a good missile but its not in the same class as the AMRAAM C...yet. My opinion of the AIM-120 in the sim is terrible. I have yet to get a lock on anything beyond 10 miles. The AIM-9M is even worse. I have hit 3 planes with it out of 20 shots.

 

Now this BS I hear constantly about western bias and Russian bias is getting old. If this sim was done with FULL realism, AIM-120 would kill everything in the air. The R-27 series would be extremely ineffective, the AIM-9M would get owned by the R-73. If we went a step further and modeled the current era i.e. with the A-10C. We would be using the Block 30/32/40/42 F-15C's with AESA radar, JHMCS and the AIM-9X. That would put the edge clearly in the favor of the US forces. Then the complaints would be worse. Everyone would fly the F-15 online and no one would be happy still. Get my point?

 

FYI in FY 2014/2015 the F-15C will be getting an IRST. The SPO for almost every aircraft in the USAF inventory is here at Wright Patterson AFB. So I get good info on a regular basis on the non classified stuff. I never thought being at this base would be so cool as its a AF Materiel Command but you get to see and be part of some cool stuff.

Edited December 11, 2012 by USAFMTL

[Teknetinium]

I never said the AIM-120 is as good as the R-73 at close range. I said it can engage at 2km. I know about the CM rejection the AIM-120 has. I do know the R-77 is a good missile but its not in the same class as the AMRAAM C...yet. My opinion of the AIM-120 in the sim is terrible. I have yet to get a lock on anything beyond 10 miles. The AIM-9M is even worse. I have hit 3 planes with it out of 20 shots.

 

Now this BS I hear constantly about western bias and Russian bias is getting old. If this sim was done with FULL realism, AIM-120 would kill everything in the air. The R-27 series would be extremely ineffective, the AIM-9M would get owned by the R-73. If we went a step further and modeled the current era i.e. with the A-10C. We would be using the Block 30/32/40/42 F-15C's with AESA radar, JHMCS and the AIM-9X. That would put the edge clearly in the favor of the US forces. Then the complaints would be worse. Everyone would fly the F-15 online and no one would be happy still. Get my point?

 

FYI in FY 2014/2015 the F-15C will be getting an IRST. The SPO for almost every aircraft in the USAF inventory is here at Wright Patterson AFB. So I get good info on a regular basis on the non classified stuff. I never thought being at this base would be so cool as its a AF Materiel Command but you get to see and be part of some cool stuff.

 

Im not saying that ER is better then aim-120, Im saying that Aim- 120 has unrealistic behavior (seeker is way to good). GG your opinion counts litle, many have been saying since FC1 that missiles were to good, Like you are saying ED has the data and if they have listened to you AIM-120 would preform even better now then they were in FC1 and FC2.

 

You can have your AESA radar against MIG-21 ( and belive that you are king of the skys) :)

Edited December 11, 2012 by Teknetinium

[GGTharos]

Im not saying that ER is better then aim-120, Im saying that Aim- 120 has unrealistic behavior (seeker is way to good). GG your opinion counts litle,

 

Oh, you are barking up the wrong tree here dude.

 

many have been saying since FC1 that missiles were to good, Like you are saying ED has the data and if they have listened to you AIM-120 would preform even better now then they were in FC1 and FC2 :)

First off, they do listen to me to the degree that I provide them with useful information, and I sure try to. The AMRAAM will perform better than it does now when better guidance logic comes around. That will be true for most missiles, compared to how they behave right now. It might also make some of them more susceptible to some counter-measures. But this is all in the future. Please stop pretending like you know something I don't. You don't know what I know, and I don't care what people's opinions are in general with respect to my knowledge on this subject. When I'm wrong, the right people know and that is all that matters.

 

What have you provided so far that can educate anyone about how missiles work, or at least facts about what they do? Random internet pages don't count you know.

Edited December 11, 2012 by GGTharos

[Teknetinium]

Oh, you are barking up the wrong tree here dude.

 

First off, they do listen to me to the degree that I provide them with useful information, and I sure try to. The AMRAAM will perform better than it does now when better guidance logic comes around. That will be true for most missiles, compared to how they behave right now. It might also make some of them more susceptible to some counter-measures. But this is all in the future. Please stop pretending like you know something I don't. You don't know what I know, and I don't care what people's opinions are in general with respect to my knowledge on this subject. When I'm wrong, the right people know and that is all that matters.

 

What have you provided so far that can educate anyone about how missiles work, or at least facts about what they do? Random internet pages don't count you know.

 

You can twist the words, still you refuse to accept the facts of the unknown witch could make the sim better, instead you insist on your propaganda witch leads in same direction etch time.

[GGTharos]

Who's twisting words? Once more you just made a post that has no useful information in it. You keep referring to these 'facts' that you either do not have, you make up, or you misinterpret. Try again :)

 

You can twist the words, still you refuse to accept the facts of the unknown witch could make the sim better instead your propaganda that leads in same direction etch time.

[Teknetinium]

Who's twisting words? Once more you just made a post that has no useful information in it. You keep referring to these 'facts' that you either do not have, you make up, or you misinterpret. Try again :)

 

I dont have the fact and I dont claim that I do,I dont have any prove on how AIM-120 preform against Russian countermeasures, and neither do you, I don't have the fact on how good the AIM-120 is effected against ground clutter, all this could make the AIM-120 seeker performance worse, by poking aim-120 seeker would make the missile more realistic in my opnion, Aim-120 would still be the best missile just not as reliable.

 

ETs do not lock sometime even if you are in range, ETs dose not go for the target if their is sun or if the target is power down, same realistic measures could be applied for aim-120. But whit different aspects as ground clutter, missile scanning cone could be reduced if its to complicated to model ground clutter.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Teknetinium

[GGTharos]

It's not that hard to find proof of how the 120 performs against clutter :)

It might be hard to find proof of how other missiles perform against clutter though.

 

I dont have the fact and I dont claim that I do,I dont have any prove on how AIM-120 preform against Russian countermeasures, and neither do you, I don't have the fact on how good the AIM-120 is effected against ground clutter, all this could make the AIM-120 seeker performance worse, It would still be the best missile.

[Teknetinium]

It's not that hard to find proof of how the 120 performs against clutter :)

It might be hard to find proof of how other missiles perform against clutter though.

 

I hope you se one of my points on how this sim could be improved,

And dont worry I know that aim-120 should be better then ER just not faster and not bigger legs witch in RL would make you think twice waiting for pit-bull ;)

Today in FC3 F-15 pilots dont mind a merge since aim-120s are clearly the best missile for that purpose when evading ER and ET are not that hard. Im not talking about balance Im talking about making the sim more non predictive. The approaches could be different to achieve a better immersion, I believe making aim-120 seeker not as good would be one of them.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Teknetinium

[G-Lock91]

You two sure you're not married? :music_whistling: Ya argue like it.

[Cali]

The guy guiding in the ER might want to think about holding that lock also. Once it's one it's own the 120 pilot can go defensive, will he have enough time...it all depends. Another thing there will always be a wingman, 4-ship and another flight someone where nearby.....check mate.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Cali

[sorcer3r]

And its even funnier how you claim that aim-120 work nearly as good as r-73 in close range, where the missile is three times heavier and faster,

Everything just to keep the advantages even thou they are not realistic.

 

I have read from a former F-18C pilot that F-16s used 120s against them in dogfight mode. I guess you shouldnt underestimate them in close range.

[Teknetinium]

I have read from a former F-18C pilot that F-16s used 120s against them in dogfight mode. I guess you shouldnt underestimate them in close range.

 

 

I dont, And you should not underestimate ER and ET as you do today in FC3, but its all fine in FC2 we had Su-27 fly whit R-77 because people could not handle it when flying alone.

 

You can believe that you are on top of the world whit your upgraded F-15 against Mig-29 from 80s :)

 

In you defence you tell me Russians only have 24 aicrafts in service of the new model, Witch is more then many EU contries airforce.

 

It seems many underestimate Russian tactics and defence.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Teknetinium

[USAFMTL]

It seems many underestimate Russian tactics and defence.

 

Well they are foolish if they do. Very foolish.

[159th_Viper]

/Minor derailment set straight with OT posts removed.

[wilky510]

I dont, And you should not underestimate ER and ET as you do today in FC3, but its all fine in FC2 we had Su-27 fly whit R-77 because people could not handle it when flying alone.

 

You can believe that you are on top of the world whit your upgraded F-15 against Mig-29 from 80s :)

 

In you defence you tell me Russians only have 24 aicrafts in service of the new model, Witch is more then many EU contries airforce.

 

It seems many underestimate Russian tactics and defence.

What upgraded 'F-15C'? You mean the one missing an AIM-9X upgrade, JHMCS upgrade, the AIM-120D introduction; and a new AESA?. All of these things are in ACTIVE SERVICE. While the R-77 in RuAF inventory is very low to non-existent.. (yet some how that's allowed in the game....).

 

You are focusing too much on this 'biased' thing. I'm sure the ER will be properly fixed. You make it seem like everyone is out to prove Russian technology wrong, when it's not the case.

 

How come you have no problem with the F-15 getting manhandled in WVR and haven't yet to mention this. The F-15 is suppose to excel at BVR. Do i complain when a MiG-29 and Su-27 smashes me in a WVR duel...? Not at all. That's how it is in real life. You are giving no credit to the US BVR doctrine, tactics or technology put forth by them.

[Cali]

What upgraded 'F-15C'? You mean the one missing an AIM-9X upgrade, JHMCS upgrade, the AIM-120D introduction; and a new AESA?. All of these things are in ACTIVE SERVICE. While the R-77 in RuAF inventory is very low to non-existent.. (yet some how that's allowed in the game....).

 

You are focusing too much on this 'biased' thing. I'm sure the ER will be properly fixed. You make it seem like everyone is out to prove Russian technology wrong, when it's not the case.

 

How come you have no problem with the F-15 getting manhandled in WVR and haven't yet to mention this. The F-15 is suppose to excel at BVR. Do i complain when a MiG-29 and Su-27 smashes me in a WVR duel...? Not at all. That's how it is in real life. You are giving no credit to the US BVR doctrine, tactics or technology put forth by them.

 

I understand what you're saying, but we aren't adding things that are a few years old. The 120C was introduced into service over 15 years ago. Also, there is no specific time frame that we are dealing with here. Did the Russian jets have anything new in 2000 or older, if so, we need the hardcore facts on it (proof/manuals) and maybe Ed can add some of that stuff in. If, the info isn't out and people are going by "I think it's better" or "this internet site said" that stuff isn't going to fly.

[3Sqn_Sven]

GG, this threat has been going for nearly a year. Why are you still arguing with this guy? He is telling you the sky is pink, we know it's not, but he's not going to change his argument. Give up dude :-)

[RIPTIDE]

GG, this threat has been going for nearly a year. Why are you still arguing with this guy? He is telling you the sky is pink, we know it's not, but he's not going to change his argument. Give up dude :-)

A year? Closer to two weeks.