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Military and Aviation News Thread (NO DISCUSSION)


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Whatever the true parameters were, it pretty much sounds, like the Indian press, at least, was a bit "flexible" in their articles...

 

I'll cite from the forces.tv article: (...) "The RAF were "introducing them to the airspace", putting the Typhoons up against the Sukhois in something more akin to a pigeon-shooting exercise, rather than a combat exercise, so the Indian pilots could get their bearings." (...)

"The Large Force Engagements saw 4 v 4 engagements at beyond visual range and graduated to a massive 8 v 8 engagement featuring 16 aircraft in the skies near Coningsby.

 

Asked about the performance of IAF pilots in these Large Force Engagements, Group Captain Srivastav told*NDTVhis pilots performed "fairly well" though "quantifying [the results] is difficult".(...)

 

...so " fairly well" does not sound like "12-0" to me, or was he referring to the familiarization flights?

In the end it seems like a lot of bragging to me. ;)


Edited by shagrat

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Yes, that's a well known part of joint exercises - (...), that could allow realistic evaluation of each other equipment, training and strategies, to instead spend the day pumping up the other side's ego by deliberately letting them win.

 

I've noticed aver the years that one side or the other always refers to that day after every joint exercise...

 

Ever participated in one? I mean not "read" about it, but being part of it?

 

I remember, how in the late 90ies we had a tactical joint exercise and as German, British and French divisions participated the computer system used for managing troop movements and outcome, was tweaked a little bit.

The river Rhine was deliberately removed from the map, as the French couldn't pass it in a way that make it possible to support the other troops.

 

So, yep, it is not unheard of, to do strange things to help a training partner in benefitting from a training exercise. ;)

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I've yet to see anything sourced here that says the Typhoon wasn't 'using' all available sensors or ASRAAM or IRIS-T, only a vague statement that the RAF were fighting 'with one hand tied behind their backs', which could mean anything - AoA limits, G limits, flying with full tanks - or limits on weapons and sensors, or the fact that they were engaging in WVR combat in the first place, and the RAF felt that this wasn't their strength against the Indian Su-30..

 

The Indians have made some BIG claims, which sound incredible (actually incredible), but without actual proof one way or the other, all the rest is 'it can't be true because I don't want it to be true...' which is also the only reason to suggest the RAF 'threw' the engagements

I'd have thought it was obvious. You can't win a dogfight against HOBS, LOAL and HMCS with a forward-firing LOBL missile, it's impossible... especially when it's 2vs1 - that's more of an insult to the pilots than the plane, if anything.

 

A statement made by the RAF and, crucially, inside quotation marks and reported by a well respected national newspaper that simply isn't in the business of attributing quotes to the UK military that were never made.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/indian-air-force-beats-raf-120-in-training-exercise--using-russiandesigned-jets-10444466.html

 

The RAF source also stressed that the Typhoons had effectively been fighting “with one arm behind their backs” as they did not make full use of their more advanced weapons systems.

 

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-air-forces-top-guns-score-wins-in-the-uk-1204336?site=full

 

The first week of the exercises pitted the Su-30, which NATO calls the Flanker, in a series of aerial dogfight scenarios. First, there were 1 v 1 encounters, where a single jet of each type engaged each other in Within Visual Range (WVR) combat, firing simulated missiles to a range of two miles.

 

You are right about the fuel tanks though:

 

sukhoi-with-typhoon-650_650x400_51438798459.jpg


Edited by Emu
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I saw this bit...

 

Both sides agreed to simulate their Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missiles at 25 miles for offensive missions and 22 miles for defensive scenarios.

 

So I know nothing about the missiles but someone who does can comment on that effect hopefully.

Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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The fact that we were limiting ASRAAM to 2 NM (and simulating export spec missiles), when its actual range is in double digits should say all that needs be said.

 

And yes, we were flying with tanks (two on most sorties).

 

It was a training exercise, for both sides and it served its purpose. But you've got to let the Indians have something she they travel all that way.


Edited by Eddie

 

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I saw this bit...

 

 

 

So I know nothing about the missiles but someone who does can comment on that effect hopefully.

Well overall it puts the defensive side at a disadvantage I guess, since they can't fire first. I'm not sure what version of the R-77 India use. If it's the R-77-1 then it's closely matched to AIM-120C5 range, if it's the earlier one, then the AIM-120C5 has a significant edge in range.

 

Radar-wise, ranges are similar against fighter targets:

 

http://www.niip.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8:2011-07-18-12-25-58&catid=8:2011-07-06-06-33-26&Itemid=8

http://typhoon.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/sensors.html

 

But the PIRATE system probably has a range advantage over OLS as regards target ID, not sure of the RoEs on that but it is a real life issue.

 

http://www.webcitation.org/6J6cwo1bR

 

Jamming-wise the Typhoon has solid-state active phased array DRFM, not sure if the Indians have that on the Su-30s.

 

https://www.myaoc.org/eweb/images/aoc_library/Events/2002/102802_CONV/02CONV_Proceedings/Day2/Track2/Bacchelli.pdf

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Yes, that's a well known part of joint exercises - the part where one side uses the first day of an infrequently organised occasion, running at a cost of hundreds of thousands of pounds per hour, that could allow realistic evaluation of each other equipment, training and strategies, to instead spend the day pumping up the other side's ego by deliberately letting them win.

 

I've noticed aver the years that one side or the other always refers to that day after every joint exercise...

 

All your sarcasm aside, I was simply repeating the spokesmans words. As with the F-35 vs F-16 sensationalised articles we saw recently, we have no idea what the real purpose of these tests were (assuming this 12-0 actually happened) It is very possible that the Typhoons were limited so much that they had very little chance of actually winning the engagements, but still achieved a different intended goal. I believe it is the Indian equivalent of tabloids printing this story anyway, lets wait for a better source with more details.

[sIGPIC]sigpic67951_1.gif[/sIGPIC]

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What comes around goes around. Didn't Typhoon (albeit they were Germans) pilots brag against 'beating' the F-22's in exercises? :lol:

 

All joking aside, I wouldn't take any outrageous claim too seriously, especially one with the size of 12-0. Seems too good to be true, in my opinion.

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What comes around goes around. Didn't Typhoon (albeit they were Germans) pilots brag against 'beating' the F-22's in exercises? :lol:

 

All joking aside, I wouldn't take any outrageous claim too seriously, especially one with the size of 12-0. Seems too good to be true, in my opinion.

I don't think anyone can actually cite an instance of an air combat training exercise where both sides agreed on the results in the whole of history.

 

RAF vs USAF - different accounts

Luftwaffe vs USAF - different accounts

USAF vs PAF - different accounts

RAF vs IAF 2007 - different accounts

RAF vs IAF 2011 - different accounts

RAF vs IAF 2015 - different accounts

USAF vs IAF - different accounts

RAF vs French AF - different accounts

Luftwaffe vs French AF - different accounts

 

I'm seeing a pattern.:lol:

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And yes, we were flying with tanks (two on most sorties).

Was it because of distance of the sorties or just to see, how does it perform with those?

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Was it because of distance of the sorties or just to see, how does it perform with those?

 

It's a normal configuration to give more flight time, it's not that often they fly without tanks.

 

And they don't make that much of a difference, at least not when compared to the same configuration on other aircraft. The tanks are specifically designed to have low supersonic drag, for example. And the FCS is clever enough to adjust G/AoA limits in real time as the tanks drain, with empty tanks there is a very minimal difference in handling from a clean jet, the drag is the only factor.

 

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the drag is the only factor.

It is not the last one.

It's a normal configuration to give more flight time, it's not that often they fly without tanks.

Then it's logical outcome. Yes, the G limit will be dynamic for both Su-30 with fuel above normal load and Typhoon with fuel tanks, but unless Typhoon drops the tanks, they won't do any good in dogfight.

"Я ошеломлён, но думаю об этом другими словами", - некий гражданин

Ноет котик, ноет кротик,



Ноет в небе самолетик,

Ноют клумбы и кусты -

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What comes around goes around. Didn't Typhoon (albeit they were Germans) pilots brag against 'beating' the F-22's in exercises?

Yepp, and it had been ripped out of context as well.

From what I read and understood, it was a "guns only" dogfight scenario, and the F-22 pilots where a bit too keen with the thrust vectoring and bled too much energy... Until they learned to control their urge to pull harder.

In fact, one of the reasons you try a scenario like this. All pilots gather experience, can try maneuvers, and learn their planes without risking lives.

BVR Typhoon against F-22 might be a bit more challenging, leave alone a full engagement on squadron level.

 

And what we can learn from history, it isn't the planes that win a fight... It's the pilots and even luck has a word. ;)

Shagrat

 

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but unless Typhoon drops the tanks, they won't do any good in dogfight.

 

If you say so.

 

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If you say so.

They - tanks, if there was some sort of misunderstanding.:)

"Я ошеломлён, но думаю об этом другими словами", - некий гражданин

Ноет котик, ноет кротик,



Ноет в небе самолетик,

Ноют клумбы и кусты -

Ноют все. Поной и ты.

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There was a F-16 crash in Germany today. The jet from Spangdahlem was on its way to the Grafenwöhr training range when it happened.

The pilot ejected and survived and the plane crashed into a forest for unknown reasons. Nobody was harmed.

 

Kf9OVm5yqTQ.jpg

"Я ошеломлён, но думаю об этом другими словами", - некий гражданин

Ноет котик, ноет кротик,



Ноет в небе самолетик,

Ноют клумбы и кусты -

Ноют все. Поной и ты.

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The pilot safely ejected and jettisoned fuel tanks as part of established emergency procedures over an unpopulated area.

The pilot is being treated at a local hospital in that area and is in good condition.

The aircraft was carrying six 25-pound training munitions. There were no live munitions on board.

The aircraft departed from Spangdahlem for a training flight near U.S. Army Garrison Bavaria in Grafenwoehr, Bavaria, Germany.

The 52nd FW has cancelled flying operations for 24 hours for safety reasons.

The cause of the accident is still currently under investigation.

 

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War in Ukraine - the situation heats up again

1. The Ukrainian government informs OSCE that due to the recent attack of the Russian-backed separatists*** the Ukrainian army 'reserves the right' to re-deploy heavy artillery previously withdrawn from the front line in accordance with the Minsk [who-knows-which-one] agreement. The recent one.

2. 11.08.2015 UK has doubled the planned programme of training of Ukrainian troops. In accordance with MoD of UK Michael Fallon's own words (during the recent meeting with Ukraine's prime minister in Kiev).

 

*** 10.08.2015 A combined arms offensive (tanks, infntry, mortars, preceded by artillery strikes) in the area of Starohnativka at 0325.

According to the Defense Ministry, a combined Russian-separatist force of up to a battalion tactical group, supported by 10 tanks, 10 infantry fighting vehicles and other equipment, launched an attack on a fortified position of Ukraine’s 72nd Separate Mechanized Brigade in the area of Starohnativka.

 

"The Minister of Defense of Ukraine and the Chief of General Staff and Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine immediately reported this to the President of Ukraine, and informed the OSCE representatives, after which it was decided to redeploy Ukrainian artillery," the ministry said.

Source: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/as-heavy-fighting-erupts-ukraine-claims-to-rebuff-separatist-offensive-395395.html


Edited by Bucic
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Glad he got out okay and nobody else was hurt. Shame to lose another Falcon as ever though.

 

Glad he's safe and no one else was injured which is always good news. Can't imagine it would be a good feeling to lose an 18 million USD aircraft, but at least he gets to tell an ejection story now!

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Russia's new MiG-35S fighter scheduled to enter service 2018

 

1103096.jpg

 

Quoting Colonel-General Viktor Bondarev, Commander of the Russian Air Force:

 

"The MiG-35S is being developed under a contract with the Defense Ministry. Research and development is to be completed in 2017. After government certification tests it will be authorized for service. Thirty planes of this type or more will be purchased."
I'm delighted it will finally enter service, I was starting to wonder if it would ever after so many years :)
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An analysis of the 2014 August-September ATO operations and defeat against combined separatist and Russian army forces has been published. In Ukrainian only but there are maps and dates.

 

 

-8-638.jpg?cb=1439467069

 

Should go well with the Bellingcat Report – Origin of Artillery Attacks on Ukrainian Military Positions in Eastern Ukraine Between 14 July 2014 and 8 August 2014

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/02/17/origin-of-artillery-attacks/


Edited by Bucic
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