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Ракеты в DCS


Chizh

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On 9/12/2021 at 11:04 AM, FoxAlfa said:

Makes sence! Thank you!

 

And really its only applicable to earlier variants AFAIK.

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  • 2 weeks later...
52 minutes ago, Chizh said:

Why it should be removed?

 

Right now in say, the FC3 planes, interleaved acts like some sort of different mode with an intermediate range.   It isn't actually 'interleaved', it just tries to 'average' some sort of results for interleave but it is incorrect.   It should provide the maximum ranges permitted by each PRF, on alternating bars like in the 'full fidelity' models. 

I believe ED does not want to do that for FC3 because it would require for the FC3 radars to actually process radar frames and basically it would add complexity.


Edited by GGTharos

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12 минут назад, GGTharos сказал:

 

Right now in say, the FC3 planes, interleaved acts like some sort of different mode with an intermediate range.   It isn't actually 'interleaved', it just tries to 'average' some sort of results for interleave but it is incorrect.   It should provide the maximum ranges permitted by each PRF, on alternating bars like in the 'full fidelity' models. 

 

Yes, here I agree. We have some data for Su-27 radar where the reduction of the detection range in the interleaved  mode is indicated. On other radars 4th generation this should works with reduced range.

Я не смотрю телевизор

ЧИЖ

 

Вакансии в ED

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In the western jets you get full range of each PRF, but the time required to run a full frame is doubled (more specifically, you have to run two frames instead of one for full coverage) so there may be a perceived loss of range based on the radar scan volume.

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On 9/20/2021 at 8:03 PM, Harlikwin said:

 

And really its only applicable to earlier variants AFAIK.

All the sidewinders up to the X do it FWIW, X only doesnt because of its FPA seeker

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3 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

All the sidewinders up to the X do it FWIW, X only doesnt because of its FPA seeker

 

From the vids I've seen the later ones do it far less then. 

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3 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

 

From the vids I've seen the later ones do it far less then. 

This is a video of a 9L, and its pretty wobbly, and there are other vids out there that show this. From what ive seen they all wobble noticeably

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That wobble is probably more visible than it is significant.  Otherwise there would be a significant range cost which documentation doesn't bear-out.

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Yes, Chizh...I don't know how it works in the Flanker. in the APG-63 as well as most US jet radars, interleave is what it sounds like. You have a high-PRF bar, and a medium-PRF bar, and a high-PRF bar, and a medium-PRF bar, and a high-PRF bar... you do not lose detection range, only it takes more time to complete a scan pattern because it will hit every area twice. Perhaps in the Flanker it interleaves between pulses instead of between scan bars?

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If there is a note of a reduction in range it may be a bulk average.  As in you may not see the target on the first pass as it so happened to be in MPRF and the next pass in HPRF may just so happen not to see it.  And by the time you've gotten to the next HPRF pulse the distance could have closed enough to account for this "reduction" in range.  As was said above interleaved means that you have one bar in HPRF then the next bar flips to MPRF and so on.  There should be no reduction in range for the HPRF and no increase in MPRF. 

 

Another possibility is that maybe it doesn't use the same waveform every bar as the pure HPRF and MPRF search modes.  As in it uses what's barely considered mprf on one bar to maximize range.  And for HPRF it uses a set of HPRF waveforms that are closer to MPRF reducing range but increasing its ability to detect high aspect targets.  Essentially a set of wave forms on the HPRF and MPRF bars that minimize the weakness of each, longer range in MPRF and somewhat better aspect detection capabilities in HPRF?   And the loss of detection range is just a way of measuring the average reduction of detection range over a pure HPRF waveform dedicated for long range search.


Edited by nighthawk2174
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5 hours ago, dundun92 said:

This is a video of a 9L, and its pretty wobbly, and there are other vids out there that show this. From what ive seen they all wobble noticeably

could be the target and its interaction with the seeker as there are vids of 9M's not wobbling anywhere as much:

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Интересная информация, главное чтобы имела под собой реальные основания. Р-27Т с 30 G - по мне ракета тогда будет в БВБ посильнее чем AIM-9М с 40G, т.к. движок позволяет держать большие G дольше, не говоря об перекачанной энергией Р-27ЭТ. Также получается, должно быть превосходство в маневре над AIM-7 и равенство перегрузок со Скайфлешем, что с лихвой компенсирует весьма "средние" характеристики дальности неэнергетической 27-й. Кроме того, в теории, если перегрузка дана именно по плоскости крыла, то максимальная перегрузка ракеты за счет единовременного достижения максимальной перегрузки на вертикальных и горизонтальных крыльях вообще может быть квадратичной суммой перегрузок на крыле, а для 30G это 42G. Для АИМ-7, если не ошибаюсь, приводится перегрузка именно по максимальной комбинации перегрузок (т.е. 25G - это уже при обоих задействованных направлениях) а вот для АИМ-9 "по крылу". А для Р-27 получается интрига, я думал что там 24G, а оказывается может быть 30G или даже 42G! Ну правда раньше времени радоваться не стоит 🙂

P.S. Да, а у Р-60 время работы движка получается раза в 1.5 больше чем у AIM-9B/E/J/P 🙂


Edited by ААК
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Р-33

 

R-33 motor-1.jpg

 

 

Book1-1.jpg

 

X-58 разгоняется за 3,6 секунды до 6000 кг плюс 15 секунды до финальных 1000 кг. Оба двигателя вероятно работать на одном и том же топливе ПЭКA-18 или близком к нему

 

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Вот смотрю я на эти таблицы и графики, и в голове возникает вопрос: "и чо?". Что они должны нам сказать без сравнения с чем-либо? Если имеется желание обратить внимание разработчиков на какую-то проблему, то это сделать проще со сравнением с текущими возможностями ракет

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Уважаемые разработчики, уважаемые коллеги! Извиняюсь за дилетантский вопрос, но просветите меня пожалуйста по двум моментам:

1. Что имеется ввиду под поддержкой даталинка у модуля INS ракеты AIM-120?

2. Что означает повышение эффективности ракеты AIM-120 против не маневрирующих целей при отсутствии сопровождения цели радаром самолета-носителя? Я правильно понял, что при срыве захвата до включения ГСН, ракета теперь должна продолжать полёт в ту точку встречи с целью (куда она наводилась до срыва захвата) под управлением своей инерциальной системы, и, если, при достижении этой точки, цель попадёт в область захвата ГСН, то ракета должна захватить и поразить её?


Edited by Vladimir_V_T
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9 minutes ago, Vladimir_V_T said:

Что означает повышение эффективности ракеты AIM-120 против не маневрирующих целей при отсутствии сопровождения цели радаром самолета-носителя? Я правильно понял, что при срыве захвата до включения ГСН, ракета теперь должна продолжать полёт в ту точку встречи с целью (куда она наводилась до срыва захвата) под управлением своей инерциальной системы, и, если, при достижении этой точки, цель попадёт в область захвата ГСН, то ракета должна захватить и поразить её?

Previously, unsupported missiles flew straight ahead, not to the last predicted target point. Now they do fly towards last known target point

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Eagle Enthusiast, Fresco Fan. Patiently waiting for the F-15E. Clicky F-15C when?

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11 minutes ago, Vladimir_V_T said:

1. What is meant by datalink support for the INS module of the AIM-120 rocket?

Before now, there wasn't really a simulation of the radar-missile data-link system or missile INS.   The missile was either guided by the aircraft's radar or not.   This is why if you shot say a 120 and it was in the loft, and the target disappeared for any reason (notch, or the shooter would split S and run away) the AIM-120 would happily fly into orbit instead of trying to fly to the target's last reported location and searching for it there.

Now, there is a more proper implementation ( @Chizh , it would be nice if you could add some details for us 🙂 ) of target data loaded into the missile before launch, then updated with DL, the INS takes that target location and aims the missile as required to reach its own radar activation point where it will search for the target.

Loading the last known good data before the launch is also part of HoJ.

11 minutes ago, Vladimir_V_T said:

2. What does it mean to increase the effectiveness of the AIM-120 missile  against non-maneuvering targets in the absence of target tracking by the radar of the carrier aircraft? I correctly understood that when the capture is disrupted before the homing is turned on, the rocket should now continue to fly to the meeting point with the target (where it was guided before the capture was disrupted) under the control of its inertial system, and if, upon reaching this point, the target falls into the area capture of the seeker, then the rocket should capture and hit it?

Your understanding is correct. 


Edited by GGTharos
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Thanks @BlackPixxel , glad to hear you find it interesting. 

Let's share something what could be helpful and could be indeed interesting to all liking to make questions.

Well know equitation for overload value ... N=Cn*ro*v^2*S/(2*m*g). Much smarter people then me wrote one text where between others they needed values of available overloads during flight of the guided missiles type ground-to-air. So they made one helpful equitation for calculation of overload and it looks like this...Nn=Nmax*Vn^2/Vmax^

Nn-current available overload

Nmax-maximal available overload

Vn-current velocity

Vmax-maximal velocity

The postulate is that Nmax is when Vmax, further that this is valid only for passive flight when weight is constant. S (referent area) is of course constant so they had 3 variables, velocity (v), density (ro) and lift coefficient (Cn). Then they made conclusion that most of the guided missiles are with form of Cn function between transonic and hypersonic speed ''Cn f(M)'' very close to form of density of air function at altitudes 0-5km ''ro f(H)''

With decreasing of the missile's velocity density slightly decrease (missile goes up in the sky) and lift coefficient slightly increase and in ratio close to say that it is in proportion. So they said Cn*ro also can be considered as constant and respectively they got...

Nn=Nmax*Vn^2/Vmax^2 ... great when have V f(t) and when have or predict one of overload N

Mathematic of guided air-to-air missiles in horizontal flight are such that density is indeed constant so something should be done with equitation because again there are two variables, velocity and Cn.

Nn=Nmax*Vn^2*Cn current / (Vmax^2*Cn at Vmax)  

 

Book1-page-001.jpg

 

This is function ro f(H) and from there can be found ration Cn current / Cn at Vmax.

Example will explain better...R-27ER at 10km fired with 510m/s

 

Doc1-page-001 (1).jpg

 

The highest velocity is 1515m/s (5M) and final velocity after 60 seconds is 395m/s (1,32M) - my own calculations so take it just informatively. I will use that maximal available overload is 30 and ratio of Cn is as follows: 1,08/0,74=1,46 ... lift coefficient at 1,32M is 1,46 times higher then at 5M

N final=30*395^2/1515^2=2,04 and *1,46 = 2,98 what is close to expected to be N=3

 


Edited by tavarish palkovnik
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