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Ракеты в DCS


Chizh

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18 minutes ago, BBCRF said:

А что у вас точные данные пл ЭР и точные геометрические размеры?

Геометрия с достаточно большой точностью.

 

5 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

 

 

Графика:

https://imgur.com/aGuRlMH

 

Это данные AIM-120A. У нас нет такой ракеты.

Я не смотрю телевизор

ЧИЖ

 

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24 minutes ago, Chizh said:

ометрия с достаточно большой точностью

 

24 minutes ago, Chizh said:

Геометрия с достаточно большой точностью.

 

Где меряли ?

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1 hour ago, Chizh said:

This is AIM-120A data. We do not have such a rocket.

 

Does this chart represent measured data or a calculation based on reasonable assumptions?   The body and rocket motor of AIM-120A and B are the same.


Edited by GGTharos

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1 hour ago, Chizh said:

Геометрия с достаточно большой точностью.

 

Это данные AIM-120A. У нас нет такой ракеты.

Yes, you have, AIM-120B without loft. Which is what i tested it with.

When ED reworks russian missiles:
 


(April 2021 update)

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2 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

Does this chart represent measured data or a calculation based on reasonable assumptions? 

 

I don't know the history behind this diagram.

In any case, I believe in the calculations that we got on the basis of СFD research.

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I agree with the CFD, and IASGAT's work got similar results so effectively it has independent verificiation.

 

I was curious about the history of the diagram, but if we don't know, then we don't know 🙂

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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I am losing hope in ED after they refuse to update the R-27 family of missiles. Why was the AIM-120 updated first with no plans to update the R-27 at the same time?

 

It does not matter which mode you play in, single player or multiplayer. AIM-120 and R-27 need to be modeled to the same standards to provide fairness (not balance) to every player.

 

If I use my R-27ER I cannot hope to even compete against an F-18 or F-16 that has AIM-120Cs, my missiles cannot reach a target that's maneuvering at 50Km head on aspect because it does not have mid course guidance with a radio like it does in real life and it loses speed too quickly in turns. And this situation is ignoring the EO bug and the joke of a chaff/flare resistance that the R-27s have. 

 

It is very discouraging to even play the Su-27/33 and MiG-29 because you cannot get kills until you get within 20Km head on aspect. I own the F-18 and F-16 and they both always get new features every update while the red planes are left with none. All we get are empty promises, red module development is ALWAYS pushed back and is always a year or more away. I doubt we will even get an update to the R-27s next year because your timelines are never followed.

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3 hours ago, Jack1nthecrack said:

I am losing hope in ED after they refuse to update the R-27 family of missiles. Why was the AIM-120 updated first with no plans to update the R-27 at the same time?

Just because we had very little data for the AIM-120 and it was very necessary to study the CFD to model it. We have enough data for the R-27ER missile and it has been modeled quite accurately in the game right now.

 

Quote

If I use my R-27ER I cannot hope to even compete against an F-18 or F-16 that has AIM-120Cs, my missiles cannot reach a target that's maneuvering at 50Km head on aspect because it does not have mid course guidance with a radio like it does in real life and it loses speed too quickly in turns.

It is not true. The 27ER is now losing energy close to its real prototype. The missile receives a mid-course updates, as it should.

 

Quote

And this situation is ignoring the EO bug and the joke of a chaff/flare resistance that the R-27s have. 

It will be addressed.

 

Quote

It is very discouraging to even play the Su-27/33 and MiG-29 because you cannot get kills until you get within 20Km head on aspect. I own the F-18 and F-16 and they both always get new features every update while the red planes are left with none. 

I don't really understand your claims. In reality, American fighters with AIM-120 and AIM-9X missiles also have superiority over the Russian Su-27 and MiG-29.
In addition, the Su-27 and MiG-29 are designed in a simplified concept of the LOMAC game and we have no plans to add any new functions. They are not full-fidelity modules.

 

PS

Nonetheless. We are currently reviewing the aerodynamic data for the R-27R/T missiles. They will have less drag and fly faster and farther.

Я не смотрю телевизор

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3 hours ago, Jack1nthecrack said:

I own the F-18 and F-16 and they both always get new features every update while the red planes are left with none. All we get are empty promises, red module development is ALWAYS pushed back and is always a year or more away.

F/A-18C and F-16C are active development modules both still in Early Access, the FC3 pack has been released for a long time and was feature complete when released. You cannot compare the development cycles of both, but I can assure you, they are not forgotten, even if they are slower to see activity. The pack also includes a number of Blue aircraft in the same boat, making this about Red or Blue bias isnt fair or true. 

The Hind is right around the corner. And the MiG-29 is planned, both full fidelity aircraft, and I spent some quality time in the Hind this weekend and it is simple they best looking and feeling helicopter to date. 

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4 hours ago, Chizh said:

I don't really understand your claims. In reality, American fighters with AIM-120 and AIM-9X missiles also have superiority over the Russian Su-27 and MiG-29.
In addition, the Su-27 and MiG-29 are designed in a simplified concept of the LOMAC game and we have no plans to add any new functions. They are not full-fidelity modules.

 

To understand what he is talking about, why don't you hop into one of the DCS PVP servers during the evening and give the Su-27 a go? Or even a MiG-29?

You will quickly see how useless the R-27ER is. Not because of kinematics. Not because of real life limitations. Simply because of of all the bugs and issues that work hand in hand to turn the R-27ER into the worst missile in the game.

 

We have:

#1 All FC3 radars have too low detection/tracking ranges, greatly hurts Su-27 and MiG-29 already low detection and tracking range

#2 Incorrect safety maneuver causing unnecessary turn and energy loss depending on the roll angle of the fighter

#3 Lack of variable PN guidance during the radio correction phase, causing unnecessary energy loss (could be easily implemented by adding variable PN that ends at 25 km)

#4 Su-27/MiG-29 INSTANTLY transition into pure OLS lock instead of extrapolating, causing much worse SARH guidance compared to aircraft that don't even have OLS.

#5 R-27 goes pure on last target position during breaks in target illuminations, where it should just keep its current lead heading. This turn causes energy loss.

#6 When the radar switches off, the R-27 will turn away from its current heading into chaff that is not even illuminated. Chance of that loss of radar lock greatly increased by #1 and #4.

 

If I am engaging another player from a much superior position with much higher energy state, then I still have a very low chance of killing him. Not because his Aim-120 and Aim-9X are better in real life, but because the performance of my missile and radar is plaqued by bugs and incorrect implementation.

 

Because of all these issues, it is extremely frustrating to use the Su-27/MiG-29 in multiplayer.

The only way to get kills is with the R-27ET, because once this missile leaves the rail it is free from all the guidance issues.


Edited by BlackPixxel
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4 часа назад, Chizh сказал:

 

Я действительно не понимаю ваших утверждений. На самом деле американские истребители с ракетами AIM-120 и AIM-9X также имеют превосходство над российскими Су-27 и МиГ-29.

 

можно нам узнать где и какими фактами, документами или тестами подтверждено сие убеждение, на основе которого строится вся концепция вооружения в DCS?

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5 hours ago, NineLine said:

F/A-18C and F-16C are active development modules both still in Early Access, the FC3 pack has been released for a long time and was feature complete when released. You cannot compare the development cycles of both, but I can assure you, they are not forgotten, even if they are slower to see activity. The pack also includes a number of Blue aircraft in the same boat, making this about Red or Blue bias isnt fair or true. 

The Hind is right around the corner. And the MiG-29 is planned, both full fidelity aircraft, and I spent some quality time in the Hind this weekend and it is simple they best looking and feeling helicopter to date. 

 

Well flaming cliffs maybe released, But bugs are neglected some reports way back into 2019, With no update nothing. 

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3 hours ago, Локонщик said:

 

можно нам узнать где и какими фактами, документами или тестами подтверждено сие убеждение, на основе которого строится вся концепция вооружения в DCS?

Если у тебя вопрос, почему истребители с активными ракетами превосходят истребителями с полуактивными ракетами то стоит для начала почитать Федосова.

Я не смотрю телевизор

ЧИЖ

 

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14 minutes ago, Chizh said:

Если у тебя вопрос, почему истребители с активными ракетами превосходят истребителями с полуактивными ракетами то стоит для начала почитать Федосова.

Пока это превосходство только на бумаге

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3 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

 

To understand what he is talking about, why don't you hop into one of the DCS PVP servers during the evening and give the Su-27 a go? Or even a MiG-29?

You will quickly see how useless the R-27ER is. Not because of kinematics. Not because of real life limitations. Simply because of of all the bugs and issues that work hand in hand to turn the R-27ER into the worst missile in the game.

 

We have:

#1 All FC3 radars have too low detection/tracking ranges, greatly hurts Su-27 and MiG-29 already low detection and tracking range

#2 Incorrect safety maneuver causing unnecessary turn and energy loss depending on the roll angle of the fighter

#3 Lack of variable PN guidance during the radio correction phase, causing unnecessary energy loss (could be easily implemented by adding variable PN that ends at 25 km)

#4 Su-27/MiG-29 INSTANTLY transition into pure OLS lock instead of extrapolating, causing much worse SARH guidance compared to aircraft that don't even have OLS.

#5 R-27 goes pure on last target position during breaks in target illuminations, where it should just keep its current lead heading. This turn causes energy loss.

#6 When the radar switches off, the R-27 will turn away from its current heading into chaff that is not even illuminated. Chance of that loss of radar lock greatly increased by #1 and #4.

 

If I am engaging another player from a much superior position with much higher energy state, then I still have a very low chance of killing him. Not because his Aim-120 and Aim-9X are better in real life, but because the performance of my missile and radar is plaqued by bugs and incorrect implementation.

 

Because of all these issues, it is extremely frustrating to use the Su-27/MiG-29 in multiplayer.

The only way to get kills is with the R-27ET, because once this missile leaves the rail it is free from all the guidance issues.

 

Chiz I invite you to fly a squad match with 51st, you fly on our side. I dont think you are aware of how bad it is. F-16 have more fuel after the fight  and you missiles miss from 10/7/5km.


Edited by Teknetinium
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2 minutes ago, Chizh said:

Нет. Это в реальности. Учи матчасть.

А можно привести реальный конфликт с Участием Ф-15 и Су-27?

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3 minutes ago, Teknetinium said:

Chiz I invite you to fly a squad match with 51st, you fly on our side. I dont think you are aware of how bad it is. F-16 have more fuel after the fight  and you missiles miss from 10/7/5km.

 

Thanks, but I don't need this. I know that it is very difficult to counter Western aircraft with active missiles on the Su-27.
It is reality.

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1 minute ago, BBCRF said:

А можно привести реальный конфликт с Участием Ф-15 и Су-27?

Зачем?

Чтобы понять преимущество противника не обязательно с ним воевать.

Этим занимаются целые институты. Они выпускают соответствующие исследования. Раньше кое-что даже в открытый доступ просачивалось.

Я не смотрю телевизор

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1 minute ago, Chizh said:

Зачем?

Чтобы понять преимущество противника не обязательно с ним воевать.

Этим занимаются целые институты. Они выпускают соответствующие исследования. Раньше кое-что даже в открытый доступ просачивалось.

я же говорю пока превосходство бумажное.Все вооружение испытывается в сферическом вакууме.Пока до реального конфликта не дошло трудно понять эффективность того или иного вооружения

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4 minutes ago, BBCRF said:

я же говорю пока превосходство бумажное.Все вооружение испытывается в сферическом вакууме.Пока до реального конфликта не дошло трудно понять эффективность того или иного вооружения

Значит наши Су-27 и МиГ-31 "бумажные" самолеты?

Нигде не воевали, никого не сбивали.

😃

 

На самом деле ты несешь ерунду. Лучше почитай хотя бы Федосова.

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Я не смотрю телевизор

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How come that in RF inferior aircrafts win over better ones with better tactic, DCS used to work like that but with missiles are how they are and the fuel situation witch cant be correct has taking all tactics away. 3 years a go and in FC1.12 F-15 and actives was better but tactics could be used as fuel game or missiles were more reliable. 

 

What has happened is that on side is so bad that even tactics are out of the way. You know that missiles tracking is objective and nothing would say that you make it less realistic if missiles get slightly better or if EOS turning on automatically and kill your SARH missile. all this together has taken the tactical side of the A2A away.  


Edited by Teknetinium
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Although, I love reading "who is better" and "buff this, nerf this" it's not helping.

From my perspective it is important that all the systems are modeled to the same standard, which unfortunately it is currently not.

Standardizing R-27 family behavior is for sure a good start, and hopeful in the future we will get Full Fidelity Red fighter,

but it will also bring a lot of limitation that FC3 doesn't have. 

 

Hornet and Viper currently are overperforming not because R-27 is bad, but they still lack a lot of their limitations, so I do wish ED spends more time on that.

I feel for sure, the MP community should more push for those to be added as counterbalance to the SP communities "Give AG radar" push. 
Addition of their limitation (less accurate RWR and Tws, jamming, realistic radar range, speed limitation) would even more stuff out then making R-27 something it is not. 


Back to missile topic: When will Aim-120 get limitation for launch G under power since now it is turning way too good to account for instability due to CG change on start.
 


Edited by FoxAlfa
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-------

 

All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation.

 

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it.

 

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