FoxAlfa Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 AIM-120 HRPF search and homing can begin as far as 13nm IRL so 8nm shouldn't be that big of a problem. Let me elaborate, if we take 80's tech radar from the similar timeframe of the Aim120a dev timeline, like AN/APG-67 from the F-20 ( ) we can see that 'marketing' numbers (optimistic) are 42 nm lookup, 31 nm lookdown, and we are talking about detections, not track... and the antenna is at least 5 times bigger with full fighter radar processing power behind it.... similar numbers are for the 90ties F-16 radars popping up... that is why I find 8 nm quite optimistic... in a lookup on hot bomber, for sure, but a look down on flanking or cold fighter...I find its performance too optimistic (I could be completely wrong)… in the end all of the Aim120 kills interviews I listened the missiles were supported till the very end and with a good reason. ------- All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation. Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it. Long time ago in galaxy far far away: https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 I don't know enough about the 120A except that it had its problems. As you know it was replaced almost immediately by the 120B. As for support, I have seen unsupported missile tactics - specifically cheapshots which were abandoned before HPRF (husky). In any case, the 120 uses the missile data-link for target discrimination (when there are multiple targets with close spacing) and general ECCM, so supporting it until it hits is considered to increase Pk for at least those reasons. However, you always have the option to leave it. Testing by the RAF indicated that AIM-120 without any data-link was as effective as a Sparrow (same Pk) and let's be really specific about the meaning of this: While the sparrow would home in all the way, the 120 shot in this case was a cheapshot from the outset, ie. it would travel a certain distance without nothing but inertial guidance. With the data-link, the Pk doubles but they don't specify if any launch-and-leave tactics were performed at all. Getting back to antenna sizes: The sparrow can home in on a fighter from over 20nm away. Yes, the aircraft's radar is a powerful illuminator, but the 120 will be at half the distance which is significant (it means you can use 1/8th of the power if I recall my math on the subject correctly). Also, I while I don't think the comparison of the F-20 radar vs. AIM-120 is entirely unfair, I would say the 120B was already more advanced. As for the numbers, I really don't recall where I read them but the 13nm HPRF search activation is for head-on medium-sized (aka fighter) targets. 'Pitbull' is when the missile reaches MPRF active range and the missile is effectively considered to have acquired its target by then regardless of look up/down or aspect. I have never seen the real parametrization for this, but you can probably compute some of it from the radar equation. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxAlfa Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 Getting back to antenna sizes: The sparrow can home in on a fighter from over 20nm away. Yes, the aircraft's radar is a powerful illuminator, but the 120 will be at half the distance which is significant (it means you can use 1/8th of the power if I recall my math on the subject correctly). Also, I while I don't think the comparison of the F-20 radar vs. AIM-120 is entirely unfair, I would say the 120B was already more advanced. I am not sure for of the exact range for the sparrow but that seams about right, but for sure it needed support radio above it. That was limiting factor why it R-24 and R-27 had radio correction added. and also that is ideal conditions. Also yes 1/8th power is correct, but that assumes same Transmitter Power and Gain... where my reserves come into it... we are not talking about 29 inch antenna with all the power and more important cooling needed... but a small battery powered 5in one and not to get into a cooling issues of it going mach 3... and currently it picks up any non-notching target 100% of the time at 8nm... ------- All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation. Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it. Long time ago in galaxy far far away: https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundun92 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 Question for the devs: how is lofting implemented in-game? Is it some sort of simple G bias? Or is it more involved? Eagle Enthusiast, Fresco Fan. Patiently waiting for the F-15E. Clicky F-15C when? HP Z400 Workstation Intel Xeon W3680 (i7-980X) OC'd to 4.0 GHz, EVGA GTX 1060 6GB SSC Gaming, 24 GB DDR3 RAM, 500GB Crucial MX500 SSD. Thrustmaster T16000M FCS HOTAS, DIY opentrack head-tracking. I upload DCS videos here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0-7L3Z5nJ-QUX5M7Dh1pGg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 I am not sure for of the exact range for the sparrow but that seams about right, but for sure it needed support radio above it. That was limiting factor why it R-24 and R-27 had radio correction added. and also that is ideal conditions. It's actually over 30nm for a fighter, 22nm was for a 2m^2 target. Sparrow has no radio correction before AIM-7P. Also yes 1/8th power is correct, but that assumes same Transmitter Power and Gain... where my reserves come into it... we are not talking about 29 inch antenna with all the power and more important cooling needed... but a small battery powered 5in one and not to get into a cooling issues of it going mach 3... and currently it picks up any non-notching target 100% of the time at 8nm... Sometimes I wonder how my microwave manages to not explode. In any case, there's too much I don't know to reliably try and do the math on this, and the back of the envelope stuff suggests that 8nm is just fine - even further away with just 150W transmitted. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxAlfa Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 Sometimes I wonder how my microwave manages to not explode. In any case, there's too much I don't know to reliably try and do the math on this, and the back of the envelope stuff suggests that 8nm is just fine - even further away with just 150W transmitted. Let back track our conversation to yesterday... you said 'it has power for days' it ended up being 80-90 sec... you say here it is more than enough for power, I don't share you optimism and disagree it can be 100% reliable pickup at that range like now due to many factors (antenna size, gain, cooling).... remember lot of ppl are having issue connecting to Wi-Fi rooter in the next room with bigger antennas and 30 years newer tech, so I will just leave it there. ------- All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation. Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it. Long time ago in galaxy far far away: https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 remember lot of ppl are having issue connecting to Wi-Fi rooter in the next room with bigger antennas and 30 years newer tech, so I will just leave it there. Ох уж эти чудовищные сравнения яблок с апельсинами :) AMD R7 5800X3D | Aorus B550 Pro | 32GB DDR4-3600 | RTX 4080 | VKB MGC Pro Gunfighter Mk III + Thustmaster TWCS + VKB T-Rudder Mk4 | HP Reverb G2 FC3 | A-10C II | Ка-50 | P-51 | UH-1 | Ми-8 | F-86F | МиГ-21 | FW-190 | МиГ-15 | Л-39 | Bf 109 | M-2000C | F-5 | Spitfire | AJS-37 | AV-8B | F/A-18C | Як-52 | F-14 | F-16 | Ми-24 | AH-64 NTTR | Normandy | Gulf | Syria | Supercarrier | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Chizh Posted October 27, 2020 Author ED Team Share Posted October 27, 2020 Question for the devs: how is lofting implemented in-game? Is it some sort of simple G bias? Or is it more involved? It is not G-bias. This is a complex dependence on range and speeds. Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxAlfa Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 Ох уж эти чудовищные сравнения яблок с апельсинами :) Antenna is antenna, transmission power is transmission power... it theory is should work prefect... in practice... not so much :) I did crunch some numbers 'on the back of the envelope stuff' with all the same reserves as GGTharos... the range it is main factor, but keep in mind there is ~24 times antenna surface area difference between F-20 antenna and Aim120... using marketing numbers of the F-20, reducing size antenna area, I came up with 7,5 nm range in lookdown against the hot target, but keep in this is with all the power and cooling of the full fighter radar, something Aim120 doesn't have.... ------- All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation. Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it. Long time ago in galaxy far far away: https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Маэстро Posted October 27, 2020 ED Team Share Posted October 27, 2020 Transmitter on the second place by power consumption. The first place for fin actuators. Also INS has a finite accuracy(time-dependent), so there is no point to increase battery capacity. YouTube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackPixxel Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 Also INS has a finite accuracy(time-dependent), so there is no point to increase battery capacity. Is such INS inaccuracy modelled with the new missile FM/autopilot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heli Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 (edited) Попробуйте перевести гугл-транслейтором. Станет все понятно. кстати при переводе через скопированную ссылку не работает, происходит баг с нумерацией страниц (не совпадает число страниц темы на форумном движке и при открытии темы через ссылку в переводчике - он обращается в более ранней странице, например сейчас переводчик считает что в этой теме 489 страниц) Edited October 27, 2020 by Heli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxAlfa Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 Is there any new information on when can we expect CFDs and updates of the R-27 and R-77? Thanks in advance ------- All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation. Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it. Long time ago in galaxy far far away: https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundun92 Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 Pretty sure it was (early?) 2021 at last update Eagle Enthusiast, Fresco Fan. Patiently waiting for the F-15E. Clicky F-15C when? HP Z400 Workstation Intel Xeon W3680 (i7-980X) OC'd to 4.0 GHz, EVGA GTX 1060 6GB SSC Gaming, 24 GB DDR3 RAM, 500GB Crucial MX500 SSD. Thrustmaster T16000M FCS HOTAS, DIY opentrack head-tracking. I upload DCS videos here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0-7L3Z5nJ-QUX5M7Dh1pGg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Chizh Posted November 1, 2020 Author ED Team Share Posted November 1, 2020 Is there any new information on when can we expect CFDs and updates of the R-27 and R-77? Thanks in advance There's no news yet. Working on weapons for 16/18, fixing bugs. There is no time for anything else yet. Sorry. Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxAlfa Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 There's no news yet. Working on weapons for 16/18, fixing bugs. There is no time for anything else yet. Sorry. Ok, thank you for the information. It is much apricated. I really hope that one day you are allowed to do a proper Red module so more attention can be paid to those updates. ------- All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation. Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it. Long time ago in galaxy far far away: https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoarfrost Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 А в приоритете после работы над исправлением багов 16/18, есть Р27/77? В 21-ом ждать? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Chizh Posted November 2, 2020 Author ED Team Share Posted November 2, 2020 А в приоритете после работы над исправлением багов 16/18, есть Р27/77? В 21-ом ждать? Ждать. Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotenDead Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 А в приоритете после работы над исправлением багов 16/18, есть Р27/77? В 21-ом ждать? И в 21 ждать, и в 22 ждать, и в 23 подождешь XD 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoarfrost Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 И в 21 ждать, и в 22 ждать, и в 23 подождешь XD Если 77-я будет пусть не такой дальнобойной, но более маневренной чем амрам, то можно и подождать))) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxDollarsAtWork Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 Ждать. I think I'm tired of waiting I gotta find a sim where the Russian planes are much more than clay shooting pigeons and rock adders bravos and actual LONG BURN Alamos Dunno about you doc, this turkey shoot along with lack of dynamic campaign and tricky IADS makes the game a snooze Peace out 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Chizh Posted November 3, 2020 Author ED Team Share Posted November 3, 2020 I think I'm tired of waiting I gotta find a sim where the Russian planes are much more than clay shooting pigeons and rock adders bravos and actual LONG BURN Alamos Dunno about you doc, this turkey shoot along with lack of dynamic campaign and tricky IADS makes the game a snooze Peace out Yes, you can find a game that you like. Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZHeN Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 записали с товарищем треки и видео: https://streamable.com/544amw https://streamable.com/zf62c9 https://streamable.com/n27ns9 https://streamable.com/c8vslu https://streamable.com/h2j9vn выявили следующую закономерность: захват все-таки теряется до полной остановки, но точно не до посадки, а во время пробега если ракета пущена до потери захвата, то вне зависимости от того, как себя будет вести цель - полностью остановится или свернет куда-то на земле, всегда 100% прямое попадание в цель если ракета пущена после потери захвата в режиме MADDOG, то цель будет лишь повреждена, прямого попадания нет треки с сервера и с клиента приложил по-прежнему не исправлено [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxAlfa Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 When will the sparrow LOFT profile be tweaked on the F-15? Now it is using it bellow 13nm, which is quite ineffective... ------- All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation. Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it. Long time ago in galaxy far far away: https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundun92 Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 When will the LOFT profile be tweaked on the F-15? Now it is using it bellow 13nm, which is quite ineffective... Are you referring to the AMRAAM or Sparrow? Eagle Enthusiast, Fresco Fan. Patiently waiting for the F-15E. Clicky F-15C when? HP Z400 Workstation Intel Xeon W3680 (i7-980X) OC'd to 4.0 GHz, EVGA GTX 1060 6GB SSC Gaming, 24 GB DDR3 RAM, 500GB Crucial MX500 SSD. Thrustmaster T16000M FCS HOTAS, DIY opentrack head-tracking. I upload DCS videos here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0-7L3Z5nJ-QUX5M7Dh1pGg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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