Ракеты в DCS

[tavarish palkovnik]

BlackPixxel...it is just rough graphic, not in scale, not in time line. In nature it should looks much more smooth.

As in video from previous page you published, that should not be shooting high flying target but exactly this what we are talking about.

 

You remind me on someone, ''if it doesn't state in manual for pilots it doesn't exist'' 

 

[BlackPixxel]

4 hours ago, tavarish palkovnik said:

BlackPixxel...it is just rough graphic, not in scale, not in time line. In nature it should looks much more smooth.

As in video from previous page you published, that should not be shooting high flying target but exactly this what we are talking about.

 

You remind me on someone, ''if it doesn't state in manual for pilots it doesn't exist'' 

 

 

Could all be true, but as long as there is nothing to proof that such a maneuver exists on the R-27 there is no way that ED is going to implement it into the simulation.

 

For the video, they will just say that a target high above the Su-30 was engaged.

 

Yes, this maneuver is part of one description of the R-27 (where it says it can dive down on the target with a constant angle), but there it is not clear whether it does that to increase range during long range combat, or whether it is just to keep the missile from hitting the ground and to reduce the chance of triggering the proximity fuze by the ground during engagements close to the ground.

[tavarish palkovnik]

 it is very hard to convince you, but all right, we don't need to think same.  

There are of course documents which confirm this, book well know to all and some other papers. This trajectory is result of mathematical algorithm and how rocket is guided in inertial phase of the flight, in related altitude ratios, and nothing more and nothing less.

 

Reading between lines is very important for understanding of essence

 

By the way, in same video just after R-27 you can see R-77 doing same  

 

 

[BlackPixxel]

4 minutes ago, tavarish palkovnik said:

 it is very hard to convince you, but all right, we don't need to think same.  

There are of course documents which confirm this, book well know to all and some other papers. This trajectory is result of mathematical algorithm and how rocket is guided in inertial phase of the flight, in related altitude ratios, and nothing more and nothing less.

 

Reading between lines is very important for understanding of essence

 

By the way, in same video just after R-27 you can see R-77 doing same  

 

 

 

It is not me that is hard to convince, it is ED

 

I only fly the russian planes, so I would absolutely love to see this maneuver in the simulator. But for that we need to show proof to ED.

 

Here is a MiG-29B document that has a very detailed explanation of the work of the R-27. I could not find anything about the Gorka trajectory in there. Maybe you saw/see something in there? https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/2378427/

 

The R-77 clip just cuts of a bit to early. Here is the full clip with impact, you can see that it is going for a rather close target that is flying higher than the Su-30, so no Gorka in this case.

 

[Yayo1]

Писалось что в патче 2.7 будут править ЭПР некоторых ракет. 

В последней стабильной 2.5.6 было:

Р-33(Reflection = 0.1),

Р-27(Reflection = 0.08),

Р-77(Reflection = 0.15),

AIM-120C(Reflection = 0.04).

В 2.7 меняли ЭПР для Р-77?

[FoxAlfa]

2 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

 

It is not me that is hard to convince, it is ED

 

I only fly the russian planes, so I would absolutely love to see this maneuver in the simulator. But for that we need to show proof to ED.

 

Here is a MiG-29B document that has a very detailed explanation of the work of the R-27. I could not find anything about the Gorka trajectory in there. Maybe you saw/see something in there? https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/2378427/

 

The R-77 clip just cuts of a bit to early. Here is the full clip with impact, you can see that it is going for a rather close target that is flying higher than the Su-30, so no Gorka in this case.

 

 

Even when looking at that clip, the maneuver can be clearly seen if you know what you are looking for.
Namely, when firing at non-manvuering target with predictable motion like a target drone or reflector parachute, the standard PN algoritam produces a single turn/bend (illustration C) it is where its gets it 'efficiency'

 

If there is any Loft/Gorka maneuver there would be two turns/bends, first to get the height, and second to correct toward the calculated impact point. (illustration B) 

first turn/and can be seen at ~00:05 and then at ~00:10 the second counter-turn/band can clearly be seen, marked with (A), 

Edited April 28, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[TotenDead]

Ракета просто пущена вдогон, такая траектория - результат того, что она летит не с полным упреждением, как и любая другая ракета

[USSR_Rik]

26.04.2021 в 15:15, FAB999 сказал:

акая антенна на носителе передает команды РК

Антенна радара передает синалы коррекции. Главный лепесток ДН "ведёт" цель, излучения боковых лепестков хватает для коррекция ракеты. ВременнУю бы диаграмму посмотреть (да и реальную ДН  тоже) -  было бы понятнее, да где ж её взять.

[Chizh]

9 часов назад, Yayo1 сказал:

Писалось что в патче 2.7 будут править ЭПР некоторых ракет. 

В последней стабильной 2.5.6 было:

Р-33 (Отражение = 0,1),

Р-27 (Отражение = 0,08),

Р-77 (Отражение = 0,15 ),

AIM-120C (Отражение = 0,04).

В 2.7 меняли ЭПР для Р-77?

Меняли для ряда ракет Воздух-Земля. Про Р-77 не помню. Может быть.

[Hoarfrost]

Андрей, а что с багом ОЛС в итоге решили? 

[Chizh]

1 час назад, Hoarfrost сказал:

Андрей, а что с багом ОЛС в итоге решили? 

Стоит в очереди

[FoxAlfa]

17 hours ago, TotenDead said:

Ракета просто пущена вдогон, такая траектория - результат того, что она летит не с полным упреждением, как и любая другая ракета

In Proportional Navigation even in pursuit missile will have single turn/band if target in non-manuvering, that is the idea of the algoritam and math.

 

For the second turn/band and Latin S shape path you need a loft or some other maneuver before going direct for the target

 

or

   

 

8 hours ago, Chizh said:

Стоит в очереди

Thank you! Hopefully higher priority since it is the last thing really hurting the MiGs and Sukhoi. 

Edited April 29, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[BlackPixxel]

The missile can also show a second turn with normal PN, because its speed is not constant.

 

At first it will lead a bit further because of the lower speed directly after launch. As it accelerates, the lead angle reduces, resulting in two curves.

[FoxAlfa]

20 minutes ago, BlackPixxel said:

The missile can also show a second turn with normal PN, because its speed is not constant.

 

At first it will lead a bit further because of the lower speed directly after launch. As it accelerates, the lead angle reduces, resulting in two curves.

That change in speed crates the first curve, if its speed was constant missile would just fly straight to the impact point without curving at all.

Also there the range and flight time is short so there aren't vast changes to account for the second curve if the missile doesn't do it on purpose.

 

Again to get the downward curve missile needs to get to target altitude faster that to target, tweaks in calculated impact point would result just in more or less upward curve

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[BlackPixxel]

For a target that is not directly in front of the nose and does not directly fly towards or away from the fighter, there will be two curves.

 

Can also be seen in R-73 videos, or in DCS when launching ET.

[FoxAlfa]

2 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

For a target that is not directly in front of the nose and does not directly fly towards or away from the fighter, there will be two curves.

 

Can also be seen in R-73 videos, or in DCS when launching ET.

 In the R-77 video, target is in front and flying away.

 

R-73 and ET used IR seekers, they tend to sidewind and overcorrect.

 

Good video showing single curve.

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[tavarish palkovnik]

With no interest whatsoever to influence on any changes...actually I'm not user of these flight simulators...just to present how that IN+RK+GSN trajectory should be created based on algorithms and basic of inertial guiding.

 

 

 

 

So this is unscaled imaginary case, blue line and dots are path of target. First what should be done is to measure angle displacement between fighter and target, that is angle FI v (vertical), same is in other plane FI h (horizontal).

Then radar of the fighter measure orbital speed (угловая скорость) of the target, let's call it OM, in both planes of course. Those two angles, FI and OM are necessary to calculate angle for which antenna in rocket's head should be turned out from neutral positon. 

Calculator is in form: FI v +/- T*1/3*OM where T is estimated time of rocket flight till getting in point where rocket will make lock (захват) of the target. That time is time of inertial flight.

Now angle is determinated and for that angle antenna will be turned and that position is called RSN, I don't know how to translate равносигнальное направление, equalsignal direction perhaps. And antenna is locked in that position what gives one axis fixed and known to fighter and rocket what is necessary for such inertial flight. After target comes in zone of the launch and rocket is launched system of positioning of the rocket in the trajectory is such that fixed all the time axis X of the rocket in rocket's system of coordinates pointing target, all the way long with aiming on ''zeroing'' linear displacement (обнуление) when rocket comes in point where target will be locked by antenna in GSN of the rocket and when self guiding will start.

 

So with this and with knowing some of the elements how rocket flies, particular cases can be drawn, for purpose and level of this discussion of course, quite enough correct. So this is for example R-27ER, launched at 10km with v0=250m/s ; vt=250m/s ; Dp=60km ; delta H=250m etc etc...

 

 

  

 

Slight ''gorka'' of some 1200m, just enough to have mathematic in order and not to have ... 57s*250m/s+21000m=35250m and 250m/s*57s=14250m ; 35250+14250=49500m...and where the hell 10,5 km has gone while we have just 3 remaining seconds on disposal.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yayo1]

14 часов назад, Chizh сказал:

Меняли для ряда ракет Воздух-Земля. Про Р-77 не помню. Может быть.

Если таки меняли эпр Р-77 в 2.7, то это хорошо. ЭПР Р-77 выглядит несколько завышенной, например, если сравнивать с ЭПР Р-27ЭР.

[tavarish palkovnik]

ЗСУ Су-25 х-25мл - YouTube

 

Ирбис из Рязани. Irbis from Ryazan. - YouTube

 

Two phenomenal videos showing vertical gorka manoeuvres of Kh-29 (seams L) and Kh-25ML. On those rockets (for 25ML for sure) principles are a bit different, line of sight toward target is moveable and gorka ends with ''razvarot'' .. don't know how to translate...when angle between line of sight and horizont close 27 degrees.

 

[GGTharos]

5 hours ago, FoxAlfa said:

 In the R-77 video, target is in front and flying away.

 

R-73 and ET used IR seekers, they tend to sidewind and overcorrect.

 

Good video showing single curve.

 

IR seekers don't get range and closure data, RF seeker do - this is why they don't need to react to the missile's speed changes ... by knowing these two pieces of data they can better shape the trajectory.  This is built directly into the zero-effort miss PN equations.

Edited April 29, 2021 by GGTharos

[Time 83]

Если уж вы заняты переделкой вооружения.

 

В данный момент ракеты ПРР на Су-25Т слишком геморные для наведения, в то время как по книжному та же Х-25МП производит автосопровождение цели а летчику нужно либо кнопкой захватить данную цель либо сбросить и ГСН перейдет к другой цели.

Актуально когда ЗРК внезапно начинает работать где нибудь на близком удалении.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Time 83

[Chizh]

5 часов назад, Yayo1 сказал:

Если таки меняли эпр Р-77 в 2.7, то это хорошо. ЭПР Р-77 выглядит несколько завышенной, например, если сравнивать с ЭПР Р-27ЭР.

Стоит иметь в виду что у Р-77 решетчатые рули, которые в ряде случаев могут работать как уголковые отражатели. И в этом случае ЭПР Р-77 может быть еще больше.

[TotenDead]

10 минут назад, Chizh сказал:

Стоит иметь в виду что у Р-77 решетчатые рули, которые в ряде случаев могут работать как уголковые отражатели. И в этом случае ЭПР Р-77 может быть еще больше.

Так и обычные рули точно так же работают как уголковые отражатели. Просто в одном случае много мелких, а в другом их всего несколько, но они огромны

[Chizh]

1 час назад, TotenDead сказал:

Так и обычные рули точно так же работают как уголковые отражатели. Просто в одном случае много мелких, а в другом их всего несколько, но они огромны

Классические рули не соединяются друг с другом под прямыми углами и не образуют решетку.

[TotenDead]

31 минуту назад, Chizh сказал:

Классические рули не соединяются друг с другом под прямыми углами и не образуют решетку.

Соединяться то не соединяются, вот только все равно под 90 друг к другу расположены)