Ракеты в DCS

[Coxy_99]

R family will never be update pipe dream.

[Jack1nthecrack]

I am losing hope in ED after they refuse to update the R-27 family of missiles. Why was the AIM-120 updated first with no plans to update the R-27 at the same time?

 

It does not matter which mode you play in, single player or multiplayer. AIM-120 and R-27 need to be modeled to the same standards to provide fairness (not balance) to every player.

 

If I use my R-27ER I cannot hope to even compete against an F-18 or F-16 that has AIM-120Cs, my missiles cannot reach a target that's maneuvering at 50Km head on aspect because it does not have mid course guidance with a radio like it does in real life and it loses speed too quickly in turns. And this situation is ignoring the EO bug and the joke of a chaff/flare resistance that the R-27s have. 

 

It is very discouraging to even play the Su-27/33 and MiG-29 because you cannot get kills until you get within 20Km head on aspect. I own the F-18 and F-16 and they both always get new features every update while the red planes are left with none. All we get are empty promises, red module development is ALWAYS pushed back and is always a year or more away. I doubt we will even get an update to the R-27s next year because your timelines are never followed.

[Chizh]

3 hours ago, Jack1nthecrack said:

I am losing hope in ED after they refuse to update the R-27 family of missiles. Why was the AIM-120 updated first with no plans to update the R-27 at the same time?

Just because we had very little data for the AIM-120 and it was very necessary to study the CFD to model it. We have enough data for the R-27ER missile and it has been modeled quite accurately in the game right now.

 

Quote

If I use my R-27ER I cannot hope to even compete against an F-18 or F-16 that has AIM-120Cs, my missiles cannot reach a target that's maneuvering at 50Km head on aspect because it does not have mid course guidance with a radio like it does in real life and it loses speed too quickly in turns.

It is not true. The 27ER is now losing energy close to its real prototype. The missile receives a mid-course updates, as it should.

 

Quote

And this situation is ignoring the EO bug and the joke of a chaff/flare resistance that the R-27s have. 

It will be addressed.

 

Quote

It is very discouraging to even play the Su-27/33 and MiG-29 because you cannot get kills until you get within 20Km head on aspect. I own the F-18 and F-16 and they both always get new features every update while the red planes are left with none. 

I don't really understand your claims. In reality, American fighters with AIM-120 and AIM-9X missiles also have superiority over the Russian Su-27 and MiG-29.
In addition, the Su-27 and MiG-29 are designed in a simplified concept of the LOMAC game and we have no plans to add any new functions. They are not full-fidelity modules.

 

PS

Nonetheless. We are currently reviewing the aerodynamic data for the R-27R/T missiles. They will have less drag and fly faster and farther.

[NineLine]

3 hours ago, Jack1nthecrack said:

I own the F-18 and F-16 and they both always get new features every update while the red planes are left with none. All we get are empty promises, red module development is ALWAYS pushed back and is always a year or more away.

F/A-18C and F-16C are active development modules both still in Early Access, the FC3 pack has been released for a long time and was feature complete when released. You cannot compare the development cycles of both, but I can assure you, they are not forgotten, even if they are slower to see activity. The pack also includes a number of Blue aircraft in the same boat, making this about Red or Blue bias isnt fair or true. 

The Hind is right around the corner. And the MiG-29 is planned, both full fidelity aircraft, and I spent some quality time in the Hind this weekend and it is simple they best looking and feeling helicopter to date. 

[BlackPixxel]

4 hours ago, Chizh said:

I don't really understand your claims. In reality, American fighters with AIM-120 and AIM-9X missiles also have superiority over the Russian Su-27 and MiG-29.
In addition, the Su-27 and MiG-29 are designed in a simplified concept of the LOMAC game and we have no plans to add any new functions. They are not full-fidelity modules.

 

To understand what he is talking about, why don't you hop into one of the DCS PVP servers during the evening and give the Su-27 a go? Or even a MiG-29?

You will quickly see how useless the R-27ER is. Not because of kinematics. Not because of real life limitations. Simply because of of all the bugs and issues that work hand in hand to turn the R-27ER into the worst missile in the game.

 

We have:

#1 All FC3 radars have too low detection/tracking ranges, greatly hurts Su-27 and MiG-29 already low detection and tracking range

#2 Incorrect safety maneuver causing unnecessary turn and energy loss depending on the roll angle of the fighter

#3 Lack of variable PN guidance during the radio correction phase, causing unnecessary energy loss (could be easily implemented by adding variable PN that ends at 25 km)

#4 Su-27/MiG-29 INSTANTLY transition into pure OLS lock instead of extrapolating, causing much worse SARH guidance compared to aircraft that don't even have OLS.

#5 R-27 goes pure on last target position during breaks in target illuminations, where it should just keep its current lead heading. This turn causes energy loss.

#6 When the radar switches off, the R-27 will turn away from its current heading into chaff that is not even illuminated. Chance of that loss of radar lock greatly increased by #1 and #4.

 

If I am engaging another player from a much superior position with much higher energy state, then I still have a very low chance of killing him. Not because his Aim-120 and Aim-9X are better in real life, but because the performance of my missile and radar is plaqued by bugs and incorrect implementation.

 

Because of all these issues, it is extremely frustrating to use the Su-27/MiG-29 in multiplayer.

The only way to get kills is with the R-27ET, because once this missile leaves the rail it is free from all the guidance issues.

Edited March 14, 2021 by BlackPixxel

[Локонщик]

4 часа назад, Chizh сказал:

 

Я действительно не понимаю ваших утверждений. На самом деле американские истребители с ракетами AIM-120 и AIM-9X также имеют превосходство над российскими Су-27 и МиГ-29.

 

можно нам узнать где и какими фактами, документами или тестами подтверждено сие убеждение, на основе которого строится вся концепция вооружения в DCS?

[Coxy_99]

5 hours ago, NineLine said:

F/A-18C and F-16C are active development modules both still in Early Access, the FC3 pack has been released for a long time and was feature complete when released. You cannot compare the development cycles of both, but I can assure you, they are not forgotten, even if they are slower to see activity. The pack also includes a number of Blue aircraft in the same boat, making this about Red or Blue bias isnt fair or true. 

The Hind is right around the corner. And the MiG-29 is planned, both full fidelity aircraft, and I spent some quality time in the Hind this weekend and it is simple they best looking and feeling helicopter to date. 

 

Well flaming cliffs maybe released, But bugs are neglected some reports way back into 2019, With no update nothing. 

[Chizh]

3 hours ago, Локонщик said:

 

можно нам узнать где и какими фактами, документами или тестами подтверждено сие убеждение, на основе которого строится вся концепция вооружения в DCS?

Если у тебя вопрос, почему истребители с активными ракетами превосходят истребителями с полуактивными ракетами то стоит для начала почитать Федосова.

[BBCRF]

14 minutes ago, Chizh said:

Если у тебя вопрос, почему истребители с активными ракетами превосходят истребителями с полуактивными ракетами то стоит для начала почитать Федосова.

Пока это превосходство только на бумаге

[Chizh]

9 minutes ago, BBCRF said:

Пока это превосходство только на бумаге

Нет. Это в реальности. Учи матчасть.

[Teknetinium]

3 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

 

To understand what he is talking about, why don't you hop into one of the DCS PVP servers during the evening and give the Su-27 a go? Or even a MiG-29?

You will quickly see how useless the R-27ER is. Not because of kinematics. Not because of real life limitations. Simply because of of all the bugs and issues that work hand in hand to turn the R-27ER into the worst missile in the game.

 

We have:

#1 All FC3 radars have too low detection/tracking ranges, greatly hurts Su-27 and MiG-29 already low detection and tracking range

#2 Incorrect safety maneuver causing unnecessary turn and energy loss depending on the roll angle of the fighter

#3 Lack of variable PN guidance during the radio correction phase, causing unnecessary energy loss (could be easily implemented by adding variable PN that ends at 25 km)

#4 Su-27/MiG-29 INSTANTLY transition into pure OLS lock instead of extrapolating, causing much worse SARH guidance compared to aircraft that don't even have OLS.

#5 R-27 goes pure on last target position during breaks in target illuminations, where it should just keep its current lead heading. This turn causes energy loss.

#6 When the radar switches off, the R-27 will turn away from its current heading into chaff that is not even illuminated. Chance of that loss of radar lock greatly increased by #1 and #4.

 

If I am engaging another player from a much superior position with much higher energy state, then I still have a very low chance of killing him. Not because his Aim-120 and Aim-9X are better in real life, but because the performance of my missile and radar is plaqued by bugs and incorrect implementation.

 

Because of all these issues, it is extremely frustrating to use the Su-27/MiG-29 in multiplayer.

The only way to get kills is with the R-27ET, because once this missile leaves the rail it is free from all the guidance issues.

 

Chiz I invite you to fly a squad match with 51st, you fly on our side. I dont think you are aware of how bad it is. F-16 have more fuel after the fight  and you missiles miss from 10/7/5km.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Teknetinium

[BBCRF]

2 minutes ago, Chizh said:

Нет. Это в реальности. Учи матчасть.

А можно привести реальный конфликт с Участием Ф-15 и Су-27?

[Chizh]

3 minutes ago, Teknetinium said:

Chiz I invite you to fly a squad match with 51st, you fly on our side. I dont think you are aware of how bad it is. F-16 have more fuel after the fight  and you missiles miss from 10/7/5km.

 

Thanks, but I don't need this. I know that it is very difficult to counter Western aircraft with active missiles on the Su-27.
It is reality.

[Chizh]

1 minute ago, BBCRF said:

А можно привести реальный конфликт с Участием Ф-15 и Су-27?

Зачем?

Чтобы понять преимущество противника не обязательно с ним воевать.

Этим занимаются целые институты. Они выпускают соответствующие исследования. Раньше кое-что даже в открытый доступ просачивалось.

[BBCRF]

1 minute ago, Chizh said:

Зачем?

Чтобы понять преимущество противника не обязательно с ним воевать.

Этим занимаются целые институты. Они выпускают соответствующие исследования. Раньше кое-что даже в открытый доступ просачивалось.

я же говорю пока превосходство бумажное.Все вооружение испытывается в сферическом вакууме.Пока до реального конфликта не дошло трудно понять эффективность того или иного вооружения

[Chizh]

4 minutes ago, BBCRF said:

я же говорю пока превосходство бумажное.Все вооружение испытывается в сферическом вакууме.Пока до реального конфликта не дошло трудно понять эффективность того или иного вооружения

Значит наши Су-27 и МиГ-31 "бумажные" самолеты?

Нигде не воевали, никого не сбивали.

 

На самом деле ты несешь ерунду. Лучше почитай хотя бы Федосова.

[Teknetinium]

How come that in RF inferior aircrafts win over better ones with better tactic, DCS used to work like that but with missiles are how they are and the fuel situation witch cant be correct has taking all tactics away. 3 years a go and in FC1.12 F-15 and actives was better but tactics could be used as fuel game or missiles were more reliable. 

 

What has happened is that on side is so bad that even tactics are out of the way. You know that missiles tracking is objective and nothing would say that you make it less realistic if missiles get slightly better or if EOS turning on automatically and kill your SARH missile. all this together has taken the tactical side of the A2A away.  

Edited March 14, 2021 by Teknetinium

[FoxAlfa]

Although, I love reading "who is better" and "buff this, nerf this" it's not helping.

From my perspective it is important that all the systems are modeled to the same standard, which unfortunately it is currently not.

Standardizing R-27 family behavior is for sure a good start, and hopeful in the future we will get Full Fidelity Red fighter,

but it will also bring a lot of limitation that FC3 doesn't have. 

 

Hornet and Viper currently are overperforming not because R-27 is bad, but they still lack a lot of their limitations, so I do wish ED spends more time on that.

I feel for sure, the MP community should more push for those to be added as counterbalance to the SP communities "Give AG radar" push. 
Addition of their limitation (less accurate RWR and Tws, jamming, realistic radar range, speed limitation) would even more stuff out then making R-27 something it is not. 

Back to missile topic: When will Aim-120 get limitation for launch G under power since now it is turning way too good to account for instability due to CG change on start.
 

Edited March 14, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

 

13 hours ago, FoxAlfa said:

Although, I love reading "who is better" and "buff this, nerf this" it's not helping.

From my perspective it is important that all the systems are modeled to the same standard, which unfortunately it is currently not.

Standardizing R-27 family behavior is for sure a good start, and hopeful in the future we will get Full Fidelity Red fighter,

but it will also bring a lot of limitation that FC3 doesn't have. 

 

Hornet and Viper currently are overperforming not because R-27 is bad, but they still lack a lot of their limitations, so I do wish ED spends more time on that.

I feel for sure, the MP community should more push for those to be added as counterbalance to the SP communities "Give AG radar" push. 
Addition of their limitation (less accurate RWR and Tws, jamming, realistic radar range, speed limitation) would even more stuff out then making R-27 something it is not. 

Back to missile topic: When will Aim-120 get limitation for launch G under power since now it is turning way too good to account for instability due to CG change on start.
 

 

Yes my thoughts exactly, its not whos better than who.

Its how accurate to real life are we, because this is a sim game not a AAA shooter or MOBA.

14 hours ago, Chizh said:

Если у тебя вопрос, почему истребители с активными ракетами превосходят истребителями с полуактивными ракетами то стоит для начала почитать Федосова.

Fedosov?

 

If this is a paper of sorts please link it to me it sounds very interesting.

Could I know more about this Fedosov fellow?

Edited March 15, 2021 by NineLine
Removed 1.15

[TotenDead]

13 часов назад, Chizh сказал:

Нет. Это в реальности. Учи матчасть.

Что нужно учить, чтобы узнать, что aim-120B имеет большую дальность чем Р-27ЭР? Где можно посмотреть на зону разрешённых пусков этой американской ракеты? Или вы все же настраивали Р-27 согласно рлэ, а аим-120 согласно своим представлениям о тяге двигателя, профилям полета навесных траектории, углам сопровождения целей и так далее? 

[Chizh]

8 hours ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

If this is a paper of sorts please link it to me it sounds very interesting.

Could I know more about this Fedosov fellow?

 

Авиация ПВО России и научно-технический прогресс. Боевые комплексы и системы вчера, сегодня, завтра

ISBN    5-7107-8418-4, 5-7107-9932-7

 

https://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/18248353/

[Chizh]

2 hours ago, TotenDead said:

Что нужно учить, чтобы узнать, что aim-120B имеет большую дальность чем Р-27ЭР? Где можно посмотреть на зону разрешённых пусков этой американской ракеты?

Мы сами высчитали проведя исследование.

А учить нужно аэродинамику, конструирование ракет и систем неведения.

 

Если есть обоснованные возражения - рассмотрим. Только реально обоснованные, а не уровня "мне так кажется".

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

23 minutes ago, Chizh said:

Авиация ПВО России и научно-технический прогресс. Боевые комплексы и системы вчера, сегодня, завтра

ISBN    5-7107-8418-4, 5-7107-9932-7

 

https://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/18248353/

This is very expensive, do you know where I can find this for free.

[Ватрушка]

16 hours ago, FoxAlfa said:

Addition of their limitation (less accurate RWR and Tws, jamming, realistic radar range, speed limitation)

Вы понимаете, что от этого больше пострадает Су-27 (у которого ТТХ радара слизаны с F-15C), а не F-16/18?

[BBCRF]

У кого есть точная геометрия Р-27ЭР?