Ракеты в DCS

[TotenDead]

4 минуты назад, Кош сказал:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/ru/files/2378427/

Думаю эта книжка у разрабов есть) А вот обратить из внимание на какой-то конкретный абзац/раздел было бы здорово. Посему и пишу про скрин.

[TotenDead]

1 час назад, Кош сказал:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/ru/files/2378427/

 

Не видно тут как-то про внешнее целеуказание ничего. Только про то, что РЛПК и ОЛС в одних ситуациях дополняют друг друга, в других один из этих двух сенсоров является ведущим, а второй - в ведомым

[Кош]

22 минуты назад, TotenDead сказал:

Не видно тут как-то про внешнее целеуказание ничего. Только про то, что РЛПК и ОЛС в одних ситуациях дополняют друг друга, в других один из этих двух сенсоров является ведущим, а второй - в ведомым

Страница 55. В DCS все равно нет этого на уровне движка. Заявлено в МиГ-23МЛА.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Кош

[Chizh]

6 часов назад, Кош сказал:

Страница 55. В DCS все равно нет этого на уровне движка. Заявлено в МиГ-23МЛА.

 

Можешь привести цитату?

[Time 83]

У каких нибудь Мэйвриков есть возможность залпового пуска нескольких в одну цель ? Что то я в Ютубе не нашел такого по игре.

Edited January 23, 2021 by Time 83

[Fuerte]

15 hours ago, Time 83 said:

У каких нибудь Мэйвриков есть возможность залпового пуска нескольких в одну цель ? Что то я в Ютубе не нашел такого по игре.

 

Два маверика в одну или две разных цели залпом (ну практически залпом, там интервал менее секунды) можно пустить на F-16C. Если цели рядом - ракеты подлетают к ним практически одновременно и от взрыва одной может сдетонировать в полете и вторая. 

[Max1mus]

On 1/13/2021 at 7:39 PM, Chizh said:

Why do you think that CFD researvh will bring any advantages to this missile? It could be the other way around. The R-27 is now very close to its prototype

Minute 3:19. "Longer range Weapons".

In DCS, the AIM-120C at 50.7 miles arrives at Mach 2.6+ and destroys the target. The R-27ER fired at around 46 Miles from higher altitude and much more speed bleeds to less than mach 2 and falls out of the sky a good 10 miles short of the target.

How are people supposed to recreate real NATO doctrine and AMRAAM tactics when the number one reason for them, the range relationship between R-27 and AMRAAM, is flipped???

Do you plan on allowing people to use AMRAAM tactics to their advantage? Or still no R-27 rework until "all projects, including MiG-29A and Apache are finished"?

Incorrect_Range_Relationship.trk Incorrect_Range_Relationship_2.trk

Edited January 27, 2021 by Max1mus

[GGTharos]

2 hours ago, Max1mus said:

Minute 3:19. "Longer range Weapons".

 

Unclass info, not relevant in the least.  You're comparing a lofting, energy conserving missile to one that is not.  If they both acted the same, you'd have a valid comparison.  Besides, we already know the flight ranges for both missiles.

 

Quote

In DCS, the AIM-120C at 50.7 miles arrives at Mach 2.6+ and destroys the target. The R-27ER fired at around 46 Miles from higher altitude and much more speed bleeds to less than mach 2 and falls out of the sky a good 10 miles short of the target.

 

Again, different missiles with different behavior - this may have more to do with DCS' atmospheric situation than it does with the missile in particular.  Loft = you get this advantage.

 

Quote

How are people supposed to recreate real NATO doctrine and AMRAAM tactics when the number one reason for them, the range relationship between R-27 and AMRAAM, is flipped???

 

Do you know the actual doctrine?  Who says it's flipped?   A guy telling you how they beat up some Indian Su-30?

 

 

Quote

Do you plan on allowing people to use AMRAAM tactics to their advantage? Or still no R-27 rework until "all projects, including MiG-29A and Apache are finished"

 

I think you'll find the rework won't give you any more range or advantage at all.   This is why I said that we already know the flight ranges.  The rework will make it more accurate, but you can forget about ever out-ranging the 120 at high altitude.

Edited January 27, 2021 by GGTharos

[dundun92]

3 hours ago, Max1mus said:

Minute 3:19. "Longer range Weapons".

In DCS, the AIM-120C at 50.7 miles arrives at Mach 2.6+ and destroys the target. The R-27ER fired at around 46 Miles from higher altitude and much more speed bleeds to less than mach 2 and falls out of the sky a good 10 miles short of the target.

How are people supposed to recreate real NATO doctrine and AMRAAM tactics when the number one reason for them, the range relationship between R-27 and AMRAAM, is flipped???

Do you plan on allowing people to use AMRAAM tactics to their advantage? Or still no R-27 rework until "all projects, including MiG-29A and Apache are finished"?

Incorrect_Range_Relationship.trk 73.7 kB · 1 download Incorrect_Range_Relationship_2.trk 74.18 kB · 0 downloads

 

If you ignore the loft, the ER in DCS actually will beat both variants of the AMRAAM (B by a sizeable margin, C by a smaller one) in a straight-line drag race out to its battery life of 60sec, and this is at 40kft M1.5 launch. Im not sure how your managing to get an ER to run out of energy before battery life from any sort of high altitude shot profile, unless theres significant target manuevring involved here. The only reason you have shot profiles where the 120s beat the ER in DCS is the lofted kinematics (which only really matter above 20-25k, and outside 20nm), which begs the question, what "range" is being refered to here? NEZ? Rmax? MAR? There simply isn't enough context to declare that the ER-120C range imbalance is "flipped", at least in any significant way.

[FoxAlfa]

People keep getting into a war which is better just so they could feel smart or superior ... and keep completely keep missing the point,

and the point is ALL the missiles should be modeled under a same standard, which is currently not the case ...

 

Like R530 or R-27 or SD-10 or Aim-120 use completely different premises for modeling and it is causing quite visible differences in behavior ... and it is very feelable in Multiplayer.

 

So please let's just all of us agree that ALL the missiles should be modeled on the same standard with same start premises and kind ask ED to expedite the standardization work

Edited January 27, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[Chizh]

3 часа назад, FoxAlfa сказал:

Like R530 or R-27 or SD-10 or Aim-120 use completely different premises for modeling and it is causing quite visible differences in behavior ... and it is very feelable in Multiplayer.

These missiles have different behavior in reality.

 

[Max1mus]

8 hours ago, GGTharos said:

The rework will make it more accurate, but you can forget about ever out-ranging the 120 at high altitude.

 

 

Then why does every pilot who has talked about it in public say it does outrange it? Why is this guy saying "longer range weapons"

 

8 hours ago, dundun92 said:

If you ignore the loft, the ER in DCS actually will beat both variants of the AMRAAM (B by a sizeable margin, C by a smaller one) in a straight-line drag race out to its battery life of 60sec, and this is at 40kft M1.5 launch. Im not sure how your managing to get an ER to run out of energy before battery life from any sort of high altitude shot profile, unless theres significant target manuevring involved here. The only reason you have shot profiles where the 120s beat the ER in DCS is the lofted kinematics (which only really matter above 20-25k, and outside 20nm), which begs the question, what "range" is being refered to here? NEZ? Rmax? MAR? There simply isn't enough context to declare that the ER-120C range imbalance is "flipped", at least in any significant way.

 

It doesnt even outrange it in a straightline shot. Can provide tracks if needed.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Max1mus

[FoxAlfa]

5 hours ago, Chizh said:

These missiles have different behavior in reality.

 

So are BMW, Mercedes, and Audi, different in reality, but here one is using physics modeling from rFactor other from Assetto Corsa and third Race Room ...

and don't get me wrong, you can have a good race, but it will not be about the cars performance since of different physics modeling ... 

Edited January 28, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[Max1mus]

 
3:40 - "R-27ER outranges our AMRAAM missiles, we will beat them by using better tactics and getting closer to shoot"

In these tracks an AIM-120B and R-27ER are fired at 82km. The ER is launched from way more altitude and speed.

Yet the AIM-120B impacts at mach 2.5+, while R-27ER falls out of the sky and passes at Mach 1.5.ERdoesnotoutrange.trk120Bnotoutranged.trk



Which AMRAAM missiles and R-27ER is the pilot talking about? Certainly not the DCS ones. Can we please have this fixed? This affects the singleplayer/coop F-18/F-16 community more than anyone.

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Max1mus

[TotenDead]

9 часов назад, Chizh сказал:

These missiles have different behavior in reality.

 

Оправдание на уровне "Ну и что, что у одного самолета СФМ, а у другого ПФМ? Они и в реальности по-разному летают"

2 часа назад, Max1mus сказал:

 
3:40 - "R-27ER outranges our AMRAAM missiles, we will beat them by using better tactics and getting closer to shoot"

In these tracks an AIM-120B and R-27ER are fired at 82km. The ER is launched from way more altitude and speed.

Yet the AIM-120B impacts at mach 2.5+, while R-27ER falls out of the sky and passes at Mach 1.5.ERdoesnotoutrange.trk120Bnotoutranged.trk



Which AMRAAM missiles and R-27ER is the pilot talking about? Certainly not the DCS ones. Can we please have this fixed? This affects the singleplayer/coop F-18/F-16 community more than anyone.

 

 

У нас есть графики из документации по Р-27ЭР и сказочная Aim-120C из ДКС, которой не существует в реальности. Выдумка вольна летать так, как хочет разработчик

[GGTharos]

3 hours ago, Max1mus said:

3:40 - "R-27ER outranges our AMRAAM missiles, we will beat them by using better tactics and getting closer to shoot"

In these tracks an AIM-120B and R-27ER are fired at 82km. The ER is launched from way more altitude and speed.

Yet the AIM-120B impacts at mach 2.5+, while R-27ER falls out of the sky and passes at Mach 1.5.ERdoesnotoutrange.trk120Bnotoutranged.trk

 

What altitudes/speed did you launch at?    Sorry, I can't view the tracks.

 

Quote

Which AMRAAM missiles and R-27ER is the pilot talking about? Certainly not the DCS ones. Can we please have this fixed? This affects the singleplayer/coop F-18/F-16 community more than anyone.

 

At the time he flew they were using the A/B type motor, which was in theory supposed to out-range the AIM-7 ... hard to say if it really did, but it did out-range the 7 in other practical ways due to the data-link.

The 120C5 added 10% more rocket mass and changed the rocket setup, adding more speed and range.

Edited January 28, 2021 by GGTharos

[Chizh]

1 час назад, TotenDead сказал:

Оправдание на уровне "Ну и что, что у одного самолета СФМ, а у другого ПФМ? Они и в реальности по-разному летают"

Не верно. Это если один бот будет с ПФМ, а другой с СФМ. Но тут боюсь бот с СФМ выиграет  потому что у него меньше ограничений.

 

1 час назад, TotenDead сказал:

У нас есть графики из документации по Р-27ЭР и сказочная Aim-120C из ДКС, которой не существует в реальности. Выдумка вольна летать так, как хочет разработчик

Приведи диаграммы той 120С что существует в реальности.

[TotenDead]

21 минуту назад, Chizh сказал:

Не верно. Это если один бот будет с ПФМ, а другой с СФМ. Но тут боюсь бот с СФМ выиграет  

Смысл не в том кто кого победит, а в качестве реализации

21 минуту назад, Chizh сказал:

Приведи диаграммы той 120С что существует в реальности.

Это ты к тому, что у вас нет диаграммы по 120С и ракета выдумана... Или что?

[Chizh]

29 минут назад, TotenDead сказал:

Это ты к тому, что у вас нет диаграммы по 120С и ракета выдумана... Или что?

Это я к тому что у тебя нет никаких данных для оценки нашей реализации.

[TotenDead]

Только что, Chizh сказал:

Это я к тому что у тебя нет никаких данных для оценки нашей реализации.

Ну почему же. У нас есть известный график по аим-120, есть заявляемая информация по изменениям от мода к моду. Уже от этого можно отталкиваться. И все же, у вас нет графика зон возможных пусков? 

[Max1mus]

1 hour ago, GGTharos said:

 

What altitudes/speed did you launch at?    Sorry, I can't view the tracks.

 

 

At the time he flew they were using the A/B type motor, which was in theory supposed to out-range the AIM-7 ... hard to say if it really did, but it did out-range the 7 in other practical ways due to the data-link.

The 120C5 added 10% more rocket mass and changed the rocket setup, adding more speed and range.

 

Is your strategy to just flood posts like this so the devs dont see them? Why dont you just look at the evidence before commenting?

ED can view my tracks.

The pilot is referring to newest AMRAAMs, but since i knew you would flood the post like this, my track includes the A/B motor AMRAAM to further solidify the point.

[dundun92]

8 hours ago, Max1mus said:

It doesnt even outrange it in a straightline shot. Can provide tracks if needed.

Dont have tracks, but I do have tacviews and the telemetry:

From 40kft M1.5 the ER will beat any AIM-120 out to its battery lift of 60sec

[Max1mus]

1 hour ago, dundun92 said:

Dont have tracks, but I do have tacviews and the telemetry:

From 40kft M1.5 the ER will beat any AIM-120 out to its battery lift of 60sec

As you can clearly see on your graph, even the AIM-120A/B has a longer range than R-27ER without lofting.

This has nothing to do with what the pilots in linked videos were talking about.

Could ED please finally do the CFD research?

Edited January 28, 2021 by Max1mus

[Chizh]

Yes, the R-27ER missiles could fly longer if it were not for the battery limitation of 60 seconds. And this limitation comes from the fact that at long ranges the INS accuracy is not enough to lock the target.

[dundun92]

14 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

As you can clearly see on your graph, even the AIM-120B has a longer range than R-27ER without lofting.

This has nothing to do with what the pilots in linked videos were talking about.

Could ED please finally do the CFD research?

If you call a M1.3 AMRAAM at 40k much of a threat compared to a M1.7 ER (those are the speeds when they hit the same distance, not accounting for target closure which will benefit the ER in a tail chase with the shorter TOF, but will benefit the AMRAAM in terms of Rmax as the target had more time to cover more distance for the missile) and are going off pure Rmax termination criteria well yea it will, thats just a consequence of the 20s longer battery life, has nothing to do with kinetics, CFD wont fix that.

Edited January 28, 2021 by dundun92