ED Team Chizh Posted November 16, 2020 Author ED Team Share Posted November 16, 2020 In the 27SK manual it is said that after the launch of 2 missiles the following ones will go for the target without radio correction, not that the radio correction for the first two missiles stops. Yes, that's what I mean. Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxDollarsAtWork Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 So correct me if I am wrong but when the N001 fires an R-27R/RE the radar doesn't emit the DL and SARH signal at the same time from the start of the launch and the missile chooses which to use Or does it emit both signals at once and the missile chooses which is appropriate based on what the seeker sees? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackPixxel Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 It can either send radio corrections or it can illuminate the target for each of the two missiles it can fully support. (Plus the third case, launch between 1 and 1.5* seeker range, where the missile flies without datalink or target illumination until it gets within seeker range to the target.) So for missile channel 1 it is either radio correction, SARH homing or nothing, and for missile channel 2 it is, independend of the previous, either radio correction, SARH homing or nothing. The first missile fired will only use channel 1, the second will only use channel 2. Using this princible, dual target engagement is possible with the R-27R/ER, as each channel can be used for a seperate target. If a third missile is fired, it will fly with pure INS without radio correction and just use the SARH homing signal once the channel of the earlier launched missile switches to homing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Chizh Posted November 17, 2020 Author ED Team Share Posted November 17, 2020 The first missile fired will only use channel 1, the second will only use channel 2. Using this princible, dual target engagement is possible with the R-27R/ER, as each channel can be used for a seperate target. Su-27 and MiG-29 can not engaged two targets simultaneously. Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackPixxel Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Yes, but the R-27 was made with this capability in mind which gets exploited when using a PESA rada (Su-30 with Bars). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Кош Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Su-27 and MiG-29 can not engaged two targets simultaneously. Что имеет в виду приведенный здесь мануал когда говорит "Сопровождение до 10 целей на проходе(режим СНП)"? То что он может обрабатывать и показывать на СЕИ до 10 целей? И я так понимаю тот С который вы сделали в игре отличается БЦВМ но не РЛС? ППС АВТ 100 60 36 Ф < | > ! ПД К i5-10600k/32GB 3600/SSD NVME/4070ti/2560x1440'32/VPC T-50 VPC T-50CM3 throttle Saitek combat rudder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Chizh Posted November 17, 2020 Author ED Team Share Posted November 17, 2020 Что имеет в виду приведенный здесь мануал когда говорит "Сопровождение до 10 целей на проходе(режим СНП)"? То что он может обрабатывать и показывать на СЕИ до 10 целей? СУВ может завязывать трассы до 10 воздушных целей в режиме СНП И я так понимаю тот С который вы сделали в игре отличается БЦВМ но не РЛС? Если вопрос про МиГ-29С (9-13С), то да, БРЛС там аналогична МиГ-29 (9-13) и МиГ-29 (9-12). Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackPixxel Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Speaking of MiG-29 radar, it would be nice if the high altitude ranges could be corrected finally. It is impossible to engage a target with R-27ER with the MiG-29 in DCS, especially the F-16, until you get really close, because the radar can not see it. The detection ranges are too low compared to the real data, especially in lookdown. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breakshot Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 If so, then this is a bug.A nice bug to have for BLUEFOR. IMO this should be a priority fix. STT with 120s not giving LW. Thanks Отправлено с моего STV100-2 через Tapatalk Tim "Breakshot" Mytrofanov | C.O. of 51 ПВО / 100 КИАП Regiments | twitch.tv/51breakshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyMPAK Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 Speaking of MiG-29 radar, it would be nice if the high altitude ranges could be corrected finally. It is impossible to engage a target with R-27ER with the MiG-29 in DCS, especially the F-16, until you get really close, because the radar can not see it. The detection ranges are too low compared to the real data, especially in lookdown. Incorrect understanding of the purpose of the P-27ER on MiG-29S. This missile is designed primarily to hit the enemy earlier, the launch distance is secondary. Iniquissimam pacem justissimo bello anteferro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackPixxel Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 Incorrect understanding of the purpose of the P-27ER on MiG-29S. This missile is designed primarily to hit the enemy earlier, the launch distance is secondary. My point is not really about the R-27, it is about the fact that the radar of the Mig-29 in DCS is not achieving the ranges that can be found in the documents/manuals. This makes it impossible to do fire a BVR shot against F-16 or F-18, as they will never show on your radar in time. If the radar would perform as documented, then the MiG-29 could at least defend itself with some R-27ER shots. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Кош Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 Апдейт логики феникса - есть ли он в бете, и работает ли у ботов? ППС АВТ 100 60 36 Ф < | > ! ПД К i5-10600k/32GB 3600/SSD NVME/4070ti/2560x1440'32/VPC T-50 VPC T-50CM3 throttle Saitek combat rudder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breakshot Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 Speaking of MiG-29 radar, it would be nice if the high altitude ranges could be corrected finally. It is impossible to engage a target with R-27ER with the MiG-29 in DCS, especially the F-16, until you get really close, because the radar can not see it. The detection ranges are too low compared to the real data, especially in lookdown.It is the same for 27/33 radars too! They are underperforming by about 10-15% in lookdown based on manuals data. Will ED look into this? Отправлено с моего STV100-2 через Tapatalk 1 Tim "Breakshot" Mytrofanov | C.O. of 51 ПВО / 100 КИАП Regiments | twitch.tv/51breakshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Chizh Posted November 25, 2020 Author ED Team Share Posted November 25, 2020 It is the same for 27/33 radars too! They are underperforming by about 10-15% in lookdown based on manuals data. Will ED look into this? Could you say what manual and what digits you mean? Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotenDead Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 А вообще есть ли возможность добавить влияние подвесок (бомб, урвв) на эпр? Хотя бы в качестве статического параметра, не зависящего от типа и количества вооружения? Например, без повесок у самолёта эпр 3м2, с любым подвесным вооружением (даже с 1 р-60) - 5м2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackPixxel Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 Could you say what manual and what digits you mean? You certainly know the Su-27SK manual, and for medium to high altitude engagements the radar in DCS is completely off. Manual is for 3 m² target, so I took the JF-17 as target drone: Scenario: JF-17 and Su-27 at 9000 m PPS detection range in the manual: 80-100 km PPS detection range in DCS: 102 km (might even argue that the radar is a little to good here) PPS lock on range in the manual: 65-80 km PPS lock on range in DCS: 87 km (again, better than the manual) BUT! When it comes to lookdown, the radar in DCS falls far behind the values in the manual. And keep in mind: The manual says that the ranges in PPS in lookup and lookdown are nearly identical. MiG-29 documents say the same. Reason is that the spectrum of the target return in a head on encounter does NOT overlap with the spectrum of the ground return. For lookdown, I kept the JF-17 at 9000 m, but put the Su-27 at 15000 m. PPS detection range in the manual: 80-100 km PPS detection range in DCS: 67 km (way to low!) PPS lock on range in the manual: 65-80 km PPS lock on range in DCS: 58 km (again, to low) So for lookdown, the ranges are below the WORST CASE values of the manual. It gets even worse when it comes to performance against a cold aspect target. Here the manual correctly differs between lookup and lookdown, as now the spectrum of the targets return overlaps with the spectrum of the ground return. This affects the radar performance in the lookdown case. In each case, the Su-27 is catching up to the target with good speed to avoid the blindspeed from the altitude line. The target flies at 9000 m in each case, while the Flanker is either at 15000 m (lookdown) or slightly below (lookup) Lookup: ZPS detection range in the manual: 50-55 km ZPS detection range in DCS: 33 km (way way way to low!) ZPS lock on range in the manual: 45-50 km ZPS lock on range in DCS: 29 km (what??!?!) Lookdown: ZPS detection range in the manual: 30-40 km ZPS detection range in DCS: 23 km (again, way to low!) ZPS lock on range in the manual: 30-35 km ZPS lock on range in DCS: 21 km (also, way to low!!) Sumary: DCS has changed since the old days, and now engagements happen at high speed and high altitude, where Aim-120s get lofted far beyond the render distance. But the radar of Su-27 and MiG-29 is stuck in the old days, where those engagement ranges where not even possible and it did not matter that much if the radar was weaker than it should be. To be able to fight in this more realistic new environment, the medium to high altitude performance of the Su-27/33 and MiG-29 radar has to receive an update to the realistic values found in the widely available documents. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Chizh Posted November 26, 2020 Author ED Team Share Posted November 26, 2020 А вообще есть ли возможность добавить влияние подвесок (бомб, урвв) на эпр? Хотя бы в качестве статического параметра, не зависящего от типа и количества вооружения? Например, без повесок у самолёта эпр 3м2, с любым подвесным вооружением (даже с 1 р-60) - 5м2 Все можно сделать, но нужно время. В хотелках это записано. Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxAlfa Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 Lookdown: ZPS detection range in the manual: 30-40 km ZPS detection range in DCS: 23 km (again, way to low!) ZPS lock on range in the manual: 30-35 km ZPS lock on range in DCS: 21 km (also, way to low!!) Since currently Aim120 in DCS picks target in lookdown tail chase at ~15-19km with 70 times smaller antenna area and much less powerful emitter... so ether Sukhoi is underpowered, or Aim120 is overpowered.... or probably both... ------- All the people keep asking for capabilities to be modelled.... I want the limitations to be modelled.... limitations make for realistic simulation. Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a bit you realize the pig likes it. Long time ago in galaxy far far away: https://www.deviantart.com/alfafox/gallery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breakshot Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 Since currently Aim120 in DCS picks target in lookdown tail chase at ~15-19km with 70 times smaller antenna area and much less powerful emitter... so ether Sukhoi is underpowered, or Aim120 is overpowered.... or probably both... Indeed! We are not even talking about the possible effects of ECM and etc. Seems, 120 in game has a better radar lookdown than a Mig-29. Its actually quite ridiculous IMO. 1 Tim "Breakshot" Mytrofanov | C.O. of 51 ПВО / 100 КИАП Regiments | twitch.tv/51breakshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Chizh Posted November 26, 2020 Author ED Team Share Posted November 26, 2020 Indeed! We are not even talking about the possible effects of ECM and etc. Seems, 120 in game has a better radar lookdown than a Mig-29. Its actually quite ridiculous IMO. If you can provide reliable figures for AMRAAM, we will of course correct the values. Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotenDead Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 If you can provide reliable figures for AMRAAM, we will of course correct the values. Экстраполируйте данные с самолётных РЛС на р-77/аим-54/120, как временное решение пойдёт, да и существенно реалистичнее будет, чем то, что имеется сейчас Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Chizh Posted November 26, 2020 Author ED Team Share Posted November 26, 2020 Экстраполируйте данные с самолётных РЛС на р-77/аим-54/120, как временное решение пойдёт, да и существенно реалистичнее будет, чем то, что имеется сейчас Экстраполяция тут не возможна, поскольку это РЛС разных поколений, с разной чувствительность, шумами и цифровой обработкой. Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotenDead Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 Экстраполяция тут не возможна, поскольку это РЛС разных поколений, с разной чувствительность, шумами и цифровой обработкой. У нас есть хорнет, да даже жф-17. Разница в поколениях тут минимальна, коэффициенты дебаффа вполне можно перекинуть на урвв с агсн. Ну и опять же, так в любом случае будет реалистичнее чем то, что имеем сейчас Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Chizh Posted November 26, 2020 Author ED Team Share Posted November 26, 2020 У нас есть хорнет, да даже жф-17. Разница в поколениях тут минимальна, коэффициенты дебаффа вполне можно перекинуть на урвв с агсн. Ну и опять же, так в любом случае будет реалистичнее чем то, что имеем сейчас А в чем нереалистичность того что имеем сейчас? Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 If you can provide reliable figures for AMRAAM, we will of course correct the values. I ran the radar equation tuned based on a known radar, then reduced the aperture appropriately for a 5" dish and of course the radiated power down to 250W ... obviously the most educated part of this whole thing is the dish size, as we don't know anything else at all about the sensor - it only assumes a similar technology level, a guess at the gain (similar technology level, so similar gain) and radiated power and assumes similar minimum detectable signal. In any case, this computes down to a 1m^2 target detection at 15.5km, 3m^2 at 20.5km, and 5m^3 at 23.5km, and this corresponds relatively well to the reported 13nm husky/go-active range (initial HRPF search and acquisition before switching to MPRF - pitbull) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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