Jump to content

Oculus Rift and DCS World Discussion


tobaschi

Oculus Rift and DCS World Discussion  

437 members have voted

  1. 1. Oculus Rift and DCS World Discussion

    • 599$ did not faze you, and YOU PRE-ORDER IT!
    • 599$ puts me into bankrupcy - I will not spend that kind of money - WILL NOT BUY
    • on the fence, will BUY LATER (at retail launch)


Recommended Posts

TrackIR is complete crap compare to the Oculus Rift, so please add the support for it, or at least tell us how to break into the DX with a injector like the vireo drivers.

Sorry but TrackIR is not complete crap compared to Oculus Rift.

 

I have Oculus Rift Devkit for my VR experiments (first day backer, and VR developer) and I do use TrackIR for quite a while for my flight simming. Current Oculus Rift has very good inertial 3DOF headtracker, probably best 3DOF inertial tracker among others I tried so far (Vuzix, Hillcrest Labs, and others...). But Track IR is absolute killer optical tracker with very low latency and full 6DOF.

 

Oculus team researches the capability to add 6DOF tracker in consumer version of the rift, personally I think they should collaborate with SixSense (guys who made Hydra controller), but as a matter of fact currently it's 3DOF which doesn't make it a killer of TrackIR, far from it.

 

Current devkit is very low resolution to be used in such a complex simulation as DCS, but I do hope they will improve resolution for consumer version. By my own observations that they need to use at least 4k panel to make it really well suited for serious flight simming. So far they plan to release consumer Rift with one FullHD panel, which still makes it pretty low res (half of Full HD per eye, stretched across a huge area of vision). For example A-10C hud would be imposible to read if in game FOV will match Rift's FOV, and you do need to match it (no zooming guys) because otherwise users will have headache.

 

And BTW Vireo drivers are pretty bad as far as I see, touched them a few times, head headache because of improper stereo rendering. Could be some settings that I miss. I like demos with native implementation far more, usually it works much much better.

 

8676746174_880fd56fb1_z.jpg


Edited by Mnemonic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 6.8k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Sorry but TrackIR is not complete crap compared to Oculus Rift.

 

It is, if we consider the whole "pack": The TIR is an overpriced piece of hardware, that existed until today because none developed something similar (since the niche market).. that's until someone come up with the facetrack.

We need to support better technology, not to pay for something that doesn't improve by 6 years.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is, if we consider the whole "pack": The TIR is an overpriced piece of hardware, that existed until today because none developed something similar (since the niche market).. that's until someone come up with the facetrack.

We need to support better technology, not to pay for something that doesn't improve by 6 years.

 

Yep... pretty much definition of TIR.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

I5 4670k, 32GB, GTX 1070, Thrustmaster TFRP, G940 Throttle extremely modded with Bodnar 0836X and Bu0836A,

Warthog Joystick with F-18 grip, Oculus Rift S - Almost all is made from gifts from friends, the most expensive parts at least

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is the possibility that adding Rift support to DCS would violate the Natural Point (TIR) SDK agreement. I put the question to NP in their forums, waiting for a response.

 

Developer support for the Rift in DCS would be outstanding. I fly aerobatics not combat so the resolution is not a big issue for me. Plus the consumer version will have a better resolution.

 

Bottom line every game that gets developer Rift support is a big deal within the Rift community. TFC would sell lots of copies of their DCS modules if they add Rift support.

 

I'm in the high 7k's in the dev kit queue, so my Rift will be shipping sometime in the next two weeks. I can't wait!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Eagle Dynamics doesn't work on native Rift support I'll prioritize Nthusim HMD support as a middleware option. We (Immersaview and Nthusim staff) have our dev kits as of last week so we're working on the utility in the next month. Rift+Hydra would be awesome for DCS World.


Edited by BHawthorne
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is, if we consider the whole "pack": The TIR is an overpriced piece of hardware, that existed until today because none developed something similar (since the niche market).. that's until someone come up with the facetrack.

We need to support better technology, not to pay for something that doesn't improve by 6 years.

 

i agree with this guy..

i bought trackir, and i think it is useless... sorry, i need 1:1 translation...

find me on steam! username: Hannibal_A101A

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197969447179

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Eagle Dynamics doesn't work on native Rift support I'll prioritize Nthusim HMD support as a middleware option. We (Immersaview and Nthusim staff) have our dev kits as of last week so we're working on the utility in the next month. Rift+Hydra would be awesome for DCS World.

 

as much as i want oculus with DCS, until the DCS engine is better optimized, oculus will be useless...

 

imagine you are playing DCS with oculus... then ur team mate drops the cluster munitions and the FPS drops to 10-15 DCS ENGINE FAILS!

 

i hope when DCS goes to 100% 64-bit... can the DCS engine perform better....

find me on steam! username: Hannibal_A101A

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197969447179

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, there is always the open source option. There is a Beta of FaceTrackNoIR somewhere on the web that can abstract the Rift's sensors and emulate TIR input to the running game, basically making native Rift Tracker support available to any game supporting TIR out there. Of course, only rotational control is possible at the moment, but when lateral movement becomes available on the Rift, this way will be the one to go. Why? Simple.

 

1.) ED cannot be held responsible for someone else using the TIR API via a driver.

2.) We would only need the optics distortion support natively (something not covered bei TIR terms), Immersaview HMD would be an option if ED don't do it themselves

3.) Some Open Source dev on the other end of the world can hardly be sued on the grounds of some american patent or DMCA, especially if he doesn't make any money with it.

 

The only thing Naturalpoint could do would be forcing ED to remove TIR support altogether from DCS, which would only hurt TIR in the long run as ED would then be free to add support to basically every other tracker out there (and once Rift comes to the mainstream, it will be much bigger than TIR). NaturalPoint are the only ones trying to enforce their draconic terms and they encrypt their API to boot (which obviously doesn't help much as you can see). They either adapt their terms to the new situation at hand or simply nobody will implement TIR support any more once the Rift becomes available for the end user masses.

 

Either way, the TIR quasi-monopoly on headtracking in the mainstream is coming to an end.

| i9 12900K |  64GB DDR5-6000 | STRIX RTX 4090 OC | LG 38GN950 38" |

| Hanns-G HT225HPB | TIR 5 & Varjo Aero | Virpil Throttle & Stick | TM TPRs |

You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i agree with this guy..

i bought trackir, and i think it is useless... sorry, i need 1:1 translation...

 

TIR will do 1:1.

ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cichlidfan, yes, it does 1:1 - but in which limits?

 

Make a test - enable trackir 1:1 and move your head 100 Degrees to the left. I hope you can Imagine what will happen.

So the often posted argument to wear a Trackir with the VR-Goggles becomes pretty useless.

 

Well, some will say : Mount the camera at the celling and the points at top of your head and swap the axis movements.

Than it will work somewhat in the horizontal - but you will still have a restriction when looking up/down and tilting.


Edited by PeterP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cichlidfan, yes, it does 1:1 - but in which limits?

 

Make a test - enable trackir 1:1 and move your head 100 Degrees to the left. I hope you can Imagine what will happen.

So the often posted argument to wear a Trackir with the VR-Goggles becomes pretty useless.

 

I never said it was useful. ;)

 

Hannibal indicated that was the issue with TIR and I merely pointed out that it was capable of doing so without any reference to practicality.


Edited by cichlidfan

ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would point the fact that adding the OR support natively it is VERY easy, it requires about 2 weeks of man work (coder) to adapt the rendering engine. It's not really a matter of time, it's just a decision.

I believe that any first person view game developed today should take this in consideration, since this is gonna be a major game changer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2.) We would only need the optics distortion support natively (something not covered bei TIR terms), Immersaview HMD would be an option if ED don't do it themselves

 

I like this idea of ED just coding the barrel distortion shader and stereoscopic 3D. Since the headtracker.dll is open source we would have the option of using FacetrackNOIR or just adding the Rift sensor-fusion calls to the headtracker.dll ourselves.

 

as much as i want oculus with DCS, until the DCS engine is better optimized, oculus will be useless...

 

imagine you are playing DCS with oculus... then ur team mate drops the cluster munitions and the FPS drops to 10-15 DCS ENGINE FAILS!

 

i hope when DCS goes to 100% 64-bit... can the DCS engine perform better....

 

That is true, all reports indicate the rift needs 60FPS w/vsync to really shine. Maybe turning the graphics down could help a bit. Afterall the Rift is about immersion not eye popping graphics.

 

Rift+Hydra would be awesome for DCS World.

 

Yes it would, keep us posted on your progress!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think avoiding a legal ensnarement with NaturalPoint should be of the absolutely lowest priority. Nobody should capitulate to those plainly anti-competitive bullies.

 

Bohemia Interactive (Operation Flashpoint, Armed Assault) have sacked up and thumbed their nose at NP by incorporating native TIR and freetrack interfaces into their games since ArmA 2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like this idea of ED just coding the barrel distortion shader and stereoscopic 3D.

 

That is true, all reports indicate the rift needs 60FPS w/vsync to really shine. Maybe turning the graphics down could help a bit. Afterall the Rift is about immersion not eye popping graphics.

 

Actually building whole stereoscopic pipeline into engine, with barrel distortion and counter-chromatic aberration is not "just", it is by far the most complex part of integration.

I mean do it the proper way, so it will look good in the actual Rift.

 

Attaching head-tracker support is actually pretty simple.

 

Besides render need to be 60 FPS, it is not "good to have to really shine", it must be rendered quickly and smoothly, otherwise every second player will vomit (no joke).

Rift completely covers everything you see, so you would want to have your virtual world to be stable, and without lag.


Edited by Mnemonic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually building whole stereoscopic pipeline into engine, with barrel distortion and counter-chromatic aberration is not "just", it is by far the most complex part of integration.

I mean do it the proper way, so it will look good in the actual Rift.

 

Attaching head-tracker support is actually pretty simple.

 

Besides render need to be 60 FPS, it is not "good to have to really shine", it must be rendered quickly and smoothly, otherwise every second player will vomit (no joke).

Rift completely covers everything you see, so you would want to have your virtual world to be stable, and without lag.

 

I'm with npole on this. I've looked through the Oculus SDK on rendering and it doesn't look that bad. Now re-writing the entire rendering pipeline in an effort to push more FPS, that's another story and would take considerably longer. And yes, the headtracker is simple to integrate and a minor portion of the total workload.

 

I've heard that not all demos run at 60 FPS and as far as motion sickness it seems like a YMMV kind of thing. I'm curious to see if I get sick with the lesser performing demos as I've never been motion sick before.

 

Has that been your experience? Never motion sick before, but the Rift gets your stomach doing backflips?

 

While it would be nice if ED did a rewrite to increase performance I think that's too much to hope for. The basic rendering integration would not take that long to implement, and then the end-users can decide if its usable. Like I said previously, I do very little combat flying so I'm confident I can get 60 FPS for flying formation aerobatics :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm with npole on this. I've looked through the Oculus SDK on rendering and it doesn't look that bad. Now re-writing the entire rendering pipeline in an effort to push more FPS, that's another story and would take considerably longer. And yes, the headtracker is simple to integrate and a minor portion of the total workload.

It is simple, I did basic integration with my own demos myself, but to make it actually work good without eyestrain, and with proper FOV and correct barrel distortion it will take time, because it will simply not work right away the way you suppose to, you need to spend time on tweaking here and there. And this tweaking took me more time than to write the code.

 

I've heard that not all demos run at 60 FPS and as far as motion sickness it seems like a YMMV kind of thing. I'm curious to see if I get sick with the lesser performing demos as I've never been motion sick before.

 

Has that been your experience? Never motion sick before, but the Rift gets your stomach doing backflips?

Did you tried the Rift?

I never had motion sickness because of HMD too, and I worked with them quite many times. But Rift's very wide FOV changes a lot in terms of perception. If you do improper rendering, or you have lot of lags, or damn even the movement of the camera if it start and stop to fast, you kinda start to feel sick. You can train to it btw, but not from all the bugs you possibly can have.

 

While it would be nice if ED did a rewrite to increase performance I think that's too much to hope for. The basic rendering integration would not take that long to implement, and then the end-users can decide if its usable. Like I said previously, I do very little combat flying so I'm confident I can get 60 FPS for flying formation aerobatics :D

You use variometer for aerobatics right? And probably speed. With current Rift devkit it would be painfull to read them in cockpit. Hopefully with higher rez panel it would be better!

 

I am not pessimistic here, I have the device and I experiment with it almost every day, and I am frequent DCS pilot. Just trying to be realistic here, and communicate my own experience. I like the Rift a lot for what it is - very affordable wide FOV HMD, but realistically we would need a much higher rez Rift (4k display in my opinion would be acceptable for reading gauges and work with avionics) and much more powerful PCs to render DCS for such high rez in stereo and 60 FPS. Current rez is just too small for what you used to in everyday simming life, you'll se it. But maybe even FullHD panel will be much better than current setup, who knows.


Edited by Mnemonic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is simple, I did basic integration with my own demos myself, but to make it actually work good without eyestrain, and with proper FOV and correct barrel distortion it will take time, because it will simply not work right away the way you suppose to, you need to spend time on tweaking here and there. And this tweaking took me more time than to write the code.

 

The tweeking and bug fixing always takes longer doesn't it, lol. Perhaps if they pull all the configuration numbers from an LUA and let the community do some of the tweeking it would make things easier.

 

 

Did you tried the Rift?

I never had motion sickness because of HMD too, and I worked with them quite many times. But Rift's very wide FOV changes a lot in terms of perception. If you do improper rendering, or you have lot of lags, or damn even the movement of the camera if it start and stop to fast, you kinda start to feel sick. You can train to it btw, but not from all the bugs you possibly can have.

 

I'm a kickstarter backer, around ~7800 in line. So I should get my Rift in the next two weeks if the latest reports are to be believed. I'm psyched.

 

You use variometer for aerobatics right? And probably speed. With current Rift devkit it would be painfull to read them in cockpit. Hopefully with higher rez panel it would be better!

 

TBH I'm looking at the Boss's jet most of the time so not looking in the pit at all. That said I figured we could create a one-off version of our L39 pit that had stupid big gauges for the Rift Dev Kit resolution.

 

I am not pessimistic here, I have the device and I experiment with it almost every day, and I am frequent DCS pilot. Just trying to be realistic here, and communicate my own experience. I like the Rift a lot for what it is - very affordable wide FOV HMD, but realistically we would need a much higher rez Rift (4k display in my opinion would be acceptable for reading gauges and work with avionics) and much more powerful PCs to render DCS for such high rez in stereo and 60 FPS. Current rez is just too small for what you used to in everyday simming life, you'll se it. But maybe even FullHD panel will be much better than current setup, who knows.

 

Really curious how the consumer version will turn out. 4K would be sweet but IDK if 4k panels will be available or affordable any time soon. Hopefully 1080P on a 5" screen will be sufficient. If DCS ultimately becomes a no-go, there's still HL2, TF2, Doom3, Hawken (eventually), and all the weird demos to enjoy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did they provide a source for that 'quote'?

 

Yea, some guy named Lucky Palmer. I know, it kinda sounds like a used car salesman's name but that's what it said.

John

Asus ROG C6H | AMD Ryzen 3600 @ 4.2Ghz | Gigabyte Aorus Waterforce WB 1080ti | 32Gb Crucial DDR4/3600 | 2Tb Intel NVMe drive | Samsung Odyssey+ VR | Thrustmaster Warthog | Saitek pedals | Custom geothermal cooling loop with a homemade 40' copper heat exchanger 35' in the ground

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yea, some guy named Lucky Palmer. I know, it kinda sounds like a used car salesman's name but that's what it said.

John

 

His name is Palmer Luckey. ;)

 

EDIT: ...and this appears to be the author's interpretation. Nowhere does he indicate that this is a quote.

 

More than 9,000 developers currently have Rifts. Oculus expects them to use the goggles to create new, complex 3-D games, just as they would for a new PlayStation or Xbox. Once that happens, probably within a few years, Oculus will release a consumer Rift and make getting lost in a game a (virtual) reality.

Edited by cichlidfan

ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yea, some guy named Lucky Palmer. I know, it kinda sounds like a used car salesman's name but that's what it said.

John

 

Yeah, Palmer Lucky.

 

 

Lucky Palmer is the nick name given to single guys who have to look after themselves, although 'lucky' is a bit ironic in that sense. I suppose it might not be that ironic depending on your last girlfriend/wife.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've followed the implementation (under the technical aspect) of the OR into a game being developed today (dx11), as said for: stereoscopic 3D, distortion, settings (idp/fov), headtracking (2dof).. so a basic but complete implementation, took around 2 weeks (single coder working time).

I then expect a longer finish touch and tweaking task, but this is normal (if we look at DCS itself, we're "re-touching" by years already.

If you look at the SDK, it's so easy (and cheap) to implement into a game that it is really a no brainer to do so, I do not see any single reason of why a developer shouldn't do it, considering the costs (time) vs benefits.

 

A couple of notes:

 

1: the story of the 60fps is just that.. a story, you don't really need 60fps to have a nice experience with the OR. However I don't see how this could be a problem, DCS isn't that resource demanding (if compared with today standards).

 

2: you really NEED head-tracking (I hope they'll add the 6dof in the final version). Playing anything that involves the user control (ie: a car simulator, a flight simulator) without moving your view (with your head) causes much motion sickness (you know if you ever tried Dirt2 via vireo.. you gonna puke after 2 minutes).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think you'd need to tweak the engine so much since much of the output configuration is already in LUA. Don't know about engine internals in detail, but all we'd need is render 2 viewports (one for each eye), which could be done with Monitor Config LUAs right now.

 

Neck modeling is not needed in the binaries (PeterP's mod could suffice), we would only need the barrel distortion shader perhaps as a configurable on/off parameter for a Viewport.

 

And the 60fps issue might be something if you use many CBUs, but given that the current Rift has pretty low resolutions, I think that framerate is perfectly achievable in fullscreen with decent rigs today.

 

Also, keep in mind that EDGE might bring DX11 and a decent performance boost to the table, perhaps even resulting in proper SLI/Crossfire support for those with really beefy computers.

 

Also, the 60fps argument is somewhat questionable. I know you want VSync on to prevent a headache due to the image tearing, but what if the panel refresh is something higher than 60Hz? That would give us some headroom. Think 120Hz. Or 80Hz. With each of those, 40fps with VSync would be doable, resulting in a frame interval time of 25ms for the frame alone, add the 5ms acquiring tracking data and you're still within the 30ms margin that would suffice for some people, but resulting 33% less load on the graphics engine.

 

For the mainstream, 4K is currently very far off because video bandwidth of both HDMI and Dual-Link DVI are not sufficient if you want to have 60Hz refresh.

| i9 12900K |  64GB DDR5-6000 | STRIX RTX 4090 OC | LG 38GN950 38" |

| Hanns-G HT225HPB | TIR 5 & Varjo Aero | Virpil Throttle & Stick | TM TPRs |

You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think you'd need to tweak the engine so much since much of the output configuration is already in LUA. Don't know about engine internals in detail, but all we'd need is render 2 viewports (one for each eye), which could be done with Monitor Config LUAs right now.

 

Neck modeling is not needed in the binaries (PeterP's mod could suffice), we would only need the barrel distortion shader perhaps as a configurable on/off parameter for a Viewport.

 

And the 60fps issue might be something if you use many CBUs, but given that the current Rift has pretty low resolutions, I think that framerate is perfectly achievable in fullscreen with decent rigs today.

 

Also, keep in mind that EDGE might bring DX11 and a decent performance boost to the table, perhaps even resulting in proper SLI/Crossfire support for those with really beefy computers.

 

Also, the 60fps argument is somewhat questionable. I know you want VSync on to prevent a headache due to the image tearing, but what if the panel refresh is something higher than 60Hz? That would give us some headroom. Think 120Hz. Or 80Hz. With each of those, 40fps with VSync would be doable, resulting in a frame interval time of 25ms for the frame alone, add the 5ms acquiring tracking data and you're still within the 30ms margin that would suffice for some people, but resulting 33% less load on the graphics engine.

 

For the mainstream, 4K is currently very far off because video bandwidth of both HDMI and Dual-Link DVI are not sufficient if you want to have 60Hz refresh.

 

I don't think you can offset the viewport in the LUA for stereoscopic vision, just render two center views. Which is a good start but I think both the offset and barrel distortion have to be done within the engine code. Then ipd/fov numbers could be added to the view.lua to allow users to tweek the amount of offset and fov.

 

A 1080P 120Hz panel for the consumer Rift would be awesome :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...