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RAZBAM simulations developing for DCS


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So by your logic even though I, you and most people already have the A-10, Frogfoot (it's free) etc, that in order to learn TTPs we should download a training aircraft? Riiiight. That's not how it works, bud. In the real world you learn all that stuff at the operational level, in the plane you're gonna be flying, not T-45Cs, T-38s or any other T-whatever. Those jets are for learning high performance, nav, form, car quals and BASIC strike. That's about it. Everything else gets done at the operational level.

 

So, you concede that you learn everything except how to employ your follow on MWS in a training airplane then?

 

My point was (and is) that it's more realistic to learn administrative contact flying, and the FUNDAMENTALS of tactical flying in a trainer.

 

I'm not sure how things work in the Marine Corps UAS pipeline, but it doesn't sound anything like the USAF pipeline.

"They've got us surrounded again - those poor bastards!" - Lt. Col. Creighton Abrams

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So by your logic even though I, you and most people already have the A-10, Frogfoot (it's free) etc, that in order to learn TTPs we should download a training aircraft? Riiiight. That's not how it works, bud. In the real world you learn all that stuff at the operational level, in the plane you're gonna be flying, not T-45Cs, T-38s or any other T-whatever. Those jets are for learning high performance, nav, form, car quals and BASIC strike. That's about it. Everything else gets done at the operational level.

 

Uh, your statement assumes you possess a level of knowledge of military aircraft operations just because you own and fly the virtual hog or frogfoot. :megalol: Just because a buddy of mine owns a V10 Dodge Viper, doesn't mean he can drive better than I in my Ford Mustang. :smilewink:

 

Pilot training in the military is based on a good foundation of initial knowledge. This is obtained through successful accomplishment of the undergraduate pilot training syllabus, then basic fighter fundamentals after obtaining your wings, and then the basic course for the MWS you've been selected to fly. Each milestone ENSURES the graduate indeed possesses the level of knowledge required to start the next phase of training.

 

Perhaps none of the fundamentals of flight mentioned by Blue are necessarily learned in a training aircraft, but their use in the virtual world shows the ability of the trainee to switch gears and think on different levels of the airmanship scale. Of course, airmanship can't be learned in only a trainer or a front line fighter. It can only be learned through repeated exposure to flight and situations that require you to put those learned fundamentals to test.

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Just because you are good at shooting tanks doesn't mean you won't kill yourself flying IMC between your base and the AO. People can play the game however they want, but I do think that good training in fundamentals develops you into a better war-fighter. It also helps with standardization when flying with wingmen.

 

But like I said - to each their own. However you want to play it is up to you..

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I better not try then, huh?

 

Try all ya want.. But what Trev said is true.

 

If everyone always wanted the same thing this would be a very sad and boring world.

 

Preaching "Eddie Doctrine" ?? Alright :cry:

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

"If they can make penicillin out of moldy bread, they can certainly make something out of you"

 

-Muhammad Ali

 

WIN 7 64-bit SP1 | AMD Phenom II X4 955 | 8.0 GB RAM | NVidia GeForce GTX 550Ti | CH Pro Throttle | CH Fighterstick | CH Pro Pedals | TrackIR5

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Try all ya want.. But what Trev said is true.

 

I don't have to try very hard; every task I listed in my original post is introduced, practiced, and demonstrated to proficiency at UPT and IFF in T-6's and T-38's. I only listed about 1/69th of the things a pilot is responsible for knowing.

 

When you show up on day one at the Formal Training Unit (FTU) for your particular MDS, they do not teach you how to fly TACAN approaches, or what a 20 degree popup attack looks like. No one expects you to be a dive-bombing zen-master when you graduate from IFF, but you will know the basic mechanics and procedures required to fly the profiles.

 

I say again, UPT (and to a large extent, IFF) teach administrative flying - the stuff you do on the way to and from the target. The stuff that is the same every single sortie, and should require exactly 0 brain bytes to accomplish.

 

The FTU and your squadron teach you tactical flying - the employment of your aircraft as a weapon system. Zero hours are wasted teaching guys to do things they learned in UPT.

"They've got us surrounded again - those poor bastards!" - Lt. Col. Creighton Abrams

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I don't have to try very hard; every task I listed in my original post is introduced, practiced, and demonstrated to proficiency at UPT and IFF in T-6's and T-38's. I only listed about 1/69th of the things a pilot is responsible for knowing.

 

When you show up on day one at the Formal Training Unit (FTU) for your particular MDS, they do not teach you how to fly TACAN approaches, or what a 20 degree popup attack looks like. No one expects you to be a dive-bombing zen-master when you graduate from IFF, but you will know the basic mechanics and procedures required to fly the profiles.

 

I say again, UPT (and to a large extent, IFF) teach administrative flying - the stuff you do on the way to and from the target. The stuff that is the same every single sortie, and should require exactly 0 brain bytes to accomplish.

 

The FTU and your squadron teach you tactical flying - the employment of your aircraft as a weapon system. Zero hours are wasted teaching guys to do things they learned in UPT.

 

 

^^^^ There's not a bloody thing anyone can say against this. It's all 100% true!

 

Well, not quite zero hours, as one of my first additional duties was as an ASLAR instructor for the squadron.

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Better ASLAR than the Snacko!

 

I concede the point, though I think an argument could be made that ASLAR is actually tactical.

 

There are going to be unique learning objectives for every platform, and some percentage of them are going to be non-tactical in nature; there's no way around that.

"They've got us surrounded again - those poor bastards!" - Lt. Col. Creighton Abrams

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Your opinion is valid. Just realize that I'm a customer too, and I feel differently than you do.

 

I wasn't talking about USMC or US Army UAS training at all. That's such a totally different animal, and you would literally crap your pants if I were to get into that whole thing.

 

I was talking about the sensibility of buying a training airplane in a sim environment such as this makes little sense, unless someone really, really wants it. I'm simply saying that by the time these training aircraft appear the value and necessity for them will be completely OBE as the target audience will already own and have been flying more advanced aircraft in this virtual space.

 

In my opinion, there seems to be little value in going backwards. In my opinion, since the target audience for all these little project is so unbelievably small that it makes more sense to concentrate efforts on bringing to the table the aircraft the aircraft everyone already wants, with the thoroughly beaten horse that is the fidelity expected of DCS simulations.

 

Leave the super-niche boutique labors of love for later on down the road. Get the products to market that people have been talking about for two years already.

 

The customer is always right. That seems trite, but its' true. The customer is always right because the customer is the one with the expendable income.

 

I'm the customer.

"They've got us surrounded again - those poor bastards!" - Lt. Col. Creighton Abrams

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The 3rd party devs are also learning so making a T plane serves both purpose.

General 3D modeling thread and reference sites

UK liveries for planes, ships and MODS.

The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance.

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The core of my essential complaint is that it's been a it's been a year and I STILL don't have a Hornet and a carrier to land it on. I'm going back to being not at all pleased that it's been offloaded to a 3rd party dev.

 

One question arises, who ever promised you that there would be one?

Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two.

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And i don't have my Jag GR3a.... so what.

General 3D modeling thread and reference sites

UK liveries for planes, ships and MODS.

The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance.

"Me, the 13th Duke of Wybourne, here on the ED forums at 3 'o' clock in the morning, with my reputation. Are they mad.."

Updates to my stuff are now going here

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... Lots of perfectly valid opinion removed ...

 

Leave the super-niche boutique labors of love for later on down the road. Get the products to market that people have been talking about for two years already.

 

The customer is always right. That seems trite, but its' true. The customer is always right because the customer is the one with the expendable income.

 

I'm the customer.

 

The people saying they like the idea of a trainer are also customers (whether "mad to want this" or otherwise).

 

Since all the work creating the trainer aircraft is work they would have to do for the "full beans" jets that you're interested in - why do you think they're daft to do one - when they can re-use this early work making the jet you want AND get paid by their other "mad customers" for the jet you don't want in the meantime ? :)

 

Different reasons have been given by lots of people, but pretty much every developer has said the same thing "we're going to make an easier airframe/trainer/whatever to learn the ropes - which some people will like and pay for at the end, helping us with both knowledge and funds while we continue to work on the bigger deals".

 

I think I'd be happier getting paid once in a year and then some more in 2.5, rather than just one lot in 2yrs and nothing in the meantime - matters in business ;)

 

The rest of these opinions are people living out their fantasies. Dunno about you but everyone seems to have their own ideas about how to spend their money living out their fantasies - not my place to tell em they can't, just so I can get my freak on earlier ;)

 

[Edit: Great - took WAY too long to answer and now look at all the same stuff there is! Ah well, still valid I guess...]

 

Martin...


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I took so long everyone said the same stuff! :-P
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All of these things are very important in real life for the preservation of life and assets... This is a simulator. If ya get task saturated and fly into a mountain... Ya restart the game and try again... Nobody dies or anything drastic. I'd rather train people with exactly the procedures and equipment that will be used verses teaching equipment and procedures in one aircraft before moving onto the "real thing"

 

Sierra I think you hit this whole thing on the head. We have to remember we are flying a simulator which gives us the leeway to make mistakes. The reason why I fly the A-10 is to get airborne and blow stuff up. If I want to learn the proper technique for using Tacan or Wing break or buzzing the admirals daughter I can do all of this in the A-10 and at the end of day I can still go and blow stuff up. Why would I pay for a trainer that has a very limited bandwidth when I can do all the training functions (if I want to) in a front line fighter. And best part is ..... I can blow stuff up crash into a mountain... dust myself off.... and do it again!!!!! Now if the trainers are free as many addons are free in Arma because the community does it for the love of the game.... then I will download the trainer fly it around for 20 hours to see what it can do then shelve it and go back to my A-10 so ..... I can blow stuff up with all the other people that want to experience the combat environment. I think what we are all concerned about is with all of the hoopla about new aircraft going on right now, we understand there is limited bandwidth out there to get exciting things done in a reasonable amount of time. Why not focus on planes that will have long lives (or deaths depending on how you fly)...I will pay for that!

I was in Art of the Kill D#@ it!!!!

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So by your logic even though I, you and most people already have the A-10, Frogfoot (it's free) etc, that in order to learn TTPs we should download a training aircraft? Riiiight. That's not how it works, bud. In the real world you learn all that stuff at the operational level, in the plane you're gonna be flying, not T-45Cs, T-38s or any other T-whatever. Those jets are for learning high performance, nav, form, car quals and BASIC strike. That's about it. Everything else gets done at the operational level.

 

IMO even if you are a veteran Hornet pilot IRL eventually you'll want a trainning aircraft at some stage and you'll want to have completed whatever trainning packages that are attached to it.(at least 1 full course) And you wont be alone everyone else will either have done it and past or be in the process of getting those quals in their logbook as it will be likely a qualification like passing basic and advanced UPT.(even if you had done it IRL):joystick: If this trainning course is created the right way every virtual pilot and/or RL pilot who is in DCS World would want to have done it. In mp people might look at each others log book like in Falcon and go ok only Qualified pilots for this flight or servers may even have a filter Qualified pilots only, if not in your log book then you can only be a spectator.:D

 

 

And if you screw up:

 

 

:thumbup:

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Had a good laugh with that first video. :megalol:

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

"If they can make penicillin out of moldy bread, they can certainly make something out of you"

 

-Muhammad Ali

 

WIN 7 64-bit SP1 | AMD Phenom II X4 955 | 8.0 GB RAM | NVidia GeForce GTX 550Ti | CH Pro Throttle | CH Fighterstick | CH Pro Pedals | TrackIR5

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During the construction of the cockpit, we wanted to ensure the accuracy of the gauge and structure placement that we went of actual aircraft drawings and photographs. Here is a small video that will show the placement and line up of the drawings and the very 3D cockpit in the upcoming RAZBAM Harrier.

 

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