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Trouble Taking Off??


WildFire
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Ok so here is my two bits. Between working and other stuff I get little time to fly but what I've learned so far...

 

BAI.jpg

This is the single most important instrument you have. Everything you do in this aircraft that comes down to life or death depends on how you control the ball. It matters in takeoff, it matters in landing, it matters immensely in dog-fighting. It affects which way your bombs drop and which direction your bullets fly and careful use lowers the speed at which tight turns turn into flailing stalls. This is why they call it "stick & rudder"

 

With that being said first I'll cover the settings. I enjoy about 2-3 degrees right rudder trim. If your using hats for trim and ailerons (which you should be) set two clicks right roll and two clicks down or nose heavy. No flaps, no tanks, no bombs, full fuel. These settings will be different for a non-clean configuration and you'll have to experiment. Now for the takeoff roll...

 

No brakes, pull the stick back to hold course on start. Advance the throttle to 45-46 manifold Hg. As it crosses about 30 Hg you'll need to add some right rudder to compensate initial torque pull. Dont trim, its all in the hands and feet now.

 

Now you need to have your trackir or view zoomed way out. With your peripheral watch the sides of the runway and verify your roughly centered. Your primary focus will be on that little ball. Keep it centered and use gentle but calculated input, it requires a lot of practice. Once your rolling and your cruising, anything above walking speed you can let go of the stick.

 

If you can manage to keep that ball centered and keep her straight on the runway she'll haul ass. Once the tail comes up around 60 she'll begin to go nuts. At this point keep your focus hat on because this is the part where keeping that ball centered is life or death. It is the very moment the tail comes up that she goes nuts. When the tail is coming up its crossing prop wash and torque and it needs a lot of rudder to overcome, but once the tail is up at the top it will only require little and steady input. Once her tail is up and that ball is centered your walking on sunshine. She'll stay straight and you can keep the wheels on the deck as long as you want. Once its steady you'll be able to focus on speed and chances are you'll already be going fast enough to lift off. I like to hold her down til about 130-150 just for kicks.

 

In conclusion, knowing what the BAI does and how to use it is the difference between life and death in this game. Learn it, use it, love it. You'll find if you can keep her centered at all times that your turns will be much tighter, your control will be more exact and your opponents will be a lil dead'r. Changing your loadout will require you to change your initial trim settings so do a lot of practice clean till you get a feel for what you need heading down the street. Good luck!

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thank you for this. I will try it out keeping an eye on the 'ball' and will report back my findings, possibly with a track/vid.

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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re: post #1

 

Yep!

 

Realize as you change altitude, and speed, and wind speed and direction at various altitudes, you should be playing with the trim constantly. I find that to be true in my setup. I do not seem to have any problems A2G hitting and killing moving or stationary targets with the .50cal guns.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

re: post #2

 

You would like Aces High.

 

But out of auto level, you will still be playing with the trim as described above.

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Ok so here is my two bits. Between working and other stuff I get little time to fly but what I've learned so far...

 

 

This is the single most important instrument you have. Everything you do in this aircraft that comes down to life or death depends on how you control the ball. It matters in takeoff, it matters in landing, it matters immensely in dog-fighting. It affects which way your bombs drop and which direction your bullets fly and careful use lowers the speed at which tight turns turn into flailing stalls. This is why they call it "stick & rudder"

 

With that being said first I'll cover the settings. I enjoy about 2-3 degrees right rudder trim. If your using hats for trim and ailerons (which you should be) set two clicks right roll and two clicks down or nose heavy. No flaps, no tanks, no bombs, full fuel. These settings will be different for a non-clean configuration and you'll have to experiment. Now for the takeoff roll...

 

No brakes, pull the stick back to hold course on start. Advance the throttle to 45-46 manifold Hg. As it crosses about 30 Hg you'll need to add some right rudder to compensate initial torque pull. Dont trim, its all in the hands and feet now.

 

Now you need to have your trackir or view zoomed way out. With your peripheral watch the sides of the runway and verify your roughly centered. Your primary focus will be on that little ball. Keep it centered and use gentle but calculated input, it requires a lot of practice. Once your rolling and your cruising, anything above walking speed you can let go of the stick.

 

If you can manage to keep that ball centered and keep her straight on the runway she'll haul ass. Once the tail comes up around 60 she'll begin to go nuts. At this point keep your focus hat on because this is the part where keeping that ball centered is life or death. It is the very moment the tail comes up that she goes nuts. When the tail is coming up its crossing prop wash and torque and it needs a lot of rudder to overcome, but once the tail is up at the top it will only require little and steady input. Once her tail is up and that ball is centered your walking on sunshine. She'll stay straight and you can keep the wheels on the deck as long as you want. Once its steady you'll be able to focus on speed and chances are you'll already be going fast enough to lift off. I like to hold her down til about 130-150 just for kicks.

 

In conclusion, knowing what the BAI does and how to use it is the difference between life and death in this game. Learn it, use it, love it. You'll find if you can keep her centered at all times that your turns will be much tighter, your control will be more exact and your opponents will be a lil dead'r. Changing your loadout will require you to change your initial trim settings so do a lot of practice clean till you get a feel for what you need heading down the street. Good luck!

 

You are absolutely right using the BAI instead of your back. It's the best way to have EARLY WARNING about the AC tendency!

THe only thing I must add that the tail is always in the propwash though the velocity distribution changes as you rise the tail. The second reason is the gyroscopic moment that requires additional right rudder input as you rotate the AC. Do it not only with the stick but with right rudder input as well. The more aggressive you rotate the plane the more right rudder input you must use.


Edited by Yo-Yo

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Thanks, hopes this helps the guys really having trouble learning where they should be looking. I had no idea about this until I started paying attention to it. Takeoff went from ridiculous rage quit mode to easy in about half an hour.

 

Yeah I didnt get too in depth with the propwash and velocity stuff, just a basic why the f*#@ it gets all crazy when she lifts up. Good correction though. As for rotation good addition. But its only a matter of time when people realize they need to watch the BAI that theyll notice anytime they make pitch or speed changes there will be rudder use.

 

Lesson 1 is use the BAI, after that I think our v-pilots will improve tenfold, as weve all been flying stuff for the last 20 years where you could get by without using some of the instruments. This brings back real piloting and "hey this plane has this stuff, you need to use it". As opposed to "its a jet, it'll fly itself".

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Takeoff went from ridiculous rage quit mode to easy in about half an hour.

 

I'm still in this mode.. I tried the 2-4' nose down trim at take-off, but I find it easier to have 4' nose up trim. I've been playing around with keeping the rear wheel locked until the tail lifts, but keep getting squirrely about mid take-off role, and most times slide from side to side. I'll try keeping the tail down until it take off itself. I've noticed that my bird ALWAYS wants to role left after take off, and I need to trim right, but once up to speed, it handles very well, as long as you keep the ball centred..

See, decide, attack, reverse -- Colonel Erich "Bubi" Hartmann

 

MSI Trident X 10th with 10700F, 2070 Super Ventus, 32 Gb DDR4 RAM, NVMe SSD for OS, 1 TB 870 Evo SSD for DCS, Quest 2

 

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I'm still in this mode.. I tried the 2-4' nose down trim at take-off, but I find it easier to have 4' nose up trim. I've been playing around with keeping the rear wheel locked until the tail lifts, but keep getting squirrely about mid take-off role, and most times slide from side to side. I'll try keeping the tail down until it take off itself. I've noticed that my bird ALWAYS wants to role left after take off, and I need to trim right, but once up to speed, it handles very well, as long as you keep the ball centred..

 

The reason you dont like nose down is because your taking off quickly and your having trouble keeping the mains down. Once you get comfortable with keeping the tail up then nose down will be preferable and you'll have to pull a little bit harder to get her in the air. The reason I do it is so she wont take off on her own. I dont like my airplane to do shit that I specifically dont make it do. So shes not going to fly off the runway unless I actually pull her off. Secondly learn to relax the stick as soon as possible because if your focused on speed, BAI, the runway you dont want to be cranking back on this thing and fly off too quickly right into a roll. You have enough on your mind, just try relaxing and using the rudder to roll her down the runway.

 

Yeah the two clicks right aileron should stop the initial roll effect, it works for me, maybe yours is different.

 

There are three separate phases to the takeoff. The first is from complete stop through about 40 mph. During this time the torque is really pulling the aircraft and you'll need a lot of right rudder to compensate. Once she is up to speed she'll begin swaying back and forth and you'll need to go both ways.

 

The second is the tail lift. Again you'll need to dance with it and keep it straight while its coming up. After a bunch of tries you'll begin to notice that its quite predictable.

 

The third is the tail up and accelerating from about 80-120. Since I only use about 2-3 degrees right rudder I have to use a little additional while shes going down the runway. Once I finally pull up she stays level and straight until I start getting up to about 160 and above which of course is a major speed change and trim of course is going to be needed.

 

During the whole process your throttle and rpm should not change, not at all. Any change in throttle or rpm will change the forces your tail is going to experience and getting used to the dance that you have to do with the pedals will change. It needs to be the same every time so you can learn it and get a feel for it. So maybe you like something like 40 or 60 Hg. Well your going to need to trim the aircraft differently for heading down the runway. If shes faster the tail will come up faster and be harder to control. Also if shes fast the initial torque pulling the aircraft from full stop will be much stronger and require even more right rudder. 45-46 already requires a lot.

 

Adjust your curves in your rudder and stick with them so you can be a little more precise. In the absence of physical tangible feedback that you get in real life we need every advantage we can get.

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Wildfire,

 

I just went by your tutorial today and everything you say is correct. This plane goes nuts when that tail comes up. I think each time it bounces off the ground until it's no longer on the ground is where the yaw gets way too squirrly. I tend to try and takeoff at around 35Psi. It's pretty slow but gives me a way to control the craft better down the runway. I still can't keep it centered down the runway but I will keep practicing.

 

-M

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I tried again last night..neutral trim all around but 3' right rudder. Throttle to 30 inHg, hit 50ish, and slowly increased inHg to about 50 and it kept nice and straight (well, almost) until take-off. I also increased by curve for all axis to 22 with a 10 deadzone. Works great now. Thanks for the tips all.

 

I think the main problems before was the for or aft trim and an overly twitchy pitch/roll axis.

See, decide, attack, reverse -- Colonel Erich "Bubi" Hartmann

 

MSI Trident X 10th with 10700F, 2070 Super Ventus, 32 Gb DDR4 RAM, NVMe SSD for OS, 1 TB 870 Evo SSD for DCS, Quest 2

 

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I tried again last night..neutral trim all around but 3' right rudder. Throttle to 30 inHg, hit 50ish, and slowly increased inHg to about 50 and it kept nice and straight (well, almost) until take-off. I also increased by curve for all axis to 22 with a 10 deadzone. Works great now. Thanks for the tips all.

 

I think the main problems before was the for or aft trim and an overly twitchy pitch/roll axis.

 

There is no doubt that you need to experiment with axis curves until you get something that you feel comfortable with.

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I tried again last night..neutral trim all around but 3' right rudder. Throttle to 30 inHg, hit 50ish, and slowly increased inHg to about 50 and it kept nice and straight (well, almost) until take-off. I also increased by curve for all axis to 22 with a 10 deadzone. Works great now. Thanks for the tips all.

 

I think the main problems before was the for or aft trim and an overly twitchy pitch/roll axis.

 

You still have to fight the tail as it bounces up and down off the runway. If you keep the stick in neutral after about 70mph, then you will be fighting the bobbing until the tail finally settles clearly off the ground. By that time, it's time to pull up and take off.

 

-M

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There is no doubt that you need to experiment with axis curves until you get something that you feel comfortable with.

 

Yes, this is my main drawback. I have everything at default and it's overly sensitive. The rudder pedals are the main thing for me that needs time to balance correctly. I'm using the CH Rudder pedals. The WARTHOG HOTAS is fine at default.

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@Shaderhacker

 

This doesn't show the rudder axis of the P-51d (I'm too lazy to load the appropriate picture up - so please ignore the red text)

, but do exactly the same with it to get more comfortable fine-adjusting the rudders.

Your exact setting may vary - but a curve of 30 seems to be a good start.

 

Just keep in mind: Your feet are about 2,5 times closer together with the CH Rudders than in the real one - and ED (hopefully) copied the exact same behaviour of a full deflection of a P-51 - means that you have a much smaller movement range like in the real one.

 

That's the lot of us desktop-pilots.

 

And I have to say that I had a boost in using the rudders more precise after I moved from the CH to the Saitek - as they are much wider.

 

 

easyAAR-1.jpg


Edited by PeterP

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ok the vid ive made,taking off smoothly with some but minimal rudder input and only used where absolutely required.

 

 

Nice flying - you have got the hang of flying a high torque WW2 bird!

Having problems? Visit http://en.wiki.eagle.ru/wiki/Main_Page

Dell Laptop M1730 -Vista- Intel Core 2 Duo T7500@2.2GHz, 4GB, Nvidia 8700MGT 767MB

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I second curves of at least 30 in everything. Rudder pedals especially. I think I have mine set to 40 cause I am using those close little ch pedals.

 

Also watched your video Ali, it was good but as my first post outlines your not using the BAI anywhere near as much as you should. When the plane started swerving you reacted quickly and perfectly so obviously you've had enough practice with the rudders to fly by feel, but the BAI gives you swerve information faster than you'll notice the plane start darting off the runway. If used correctly you should be able to stay on the centerline all the way down.

 

But regardless a good takeoff.


Edited by WildFire
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Wildfire,

 

I just went by your tutorial today and everything you say is correct. This plane goes nuts when that tail comes up. I think each time it bounces off the ground until it's no longer on the ground is where the yaw gets way too squirrly. I tend to try and takeoff at around 35Psi. It's pretty slow but gives me a way to control the craft better down the runway. I still can't keep it centered down the runway but I will keep practicing.

 

-M

 

I have the exact same problem, as soon as that back wheel comes off the ground the whole plane tilts to the right where only the right wheel is touching the ground. I cannot keep it centered down the centerline of the runway to get up to speed. One way that I try to compensate with this problem is to slowly increase my throttle. Which is much unlike the A-10 that I'm used to flying. With the A-10 I'm used to putting it on 100% throttle.

 

One way I think this will differ is once I get my rudder pedals in the mail, which I have set to automatic right now in the game for the time being.

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Also watched your video Ali, it was good but as my first post outlines your not using the BAI anywhere near as much as you should.

 

I vehemently disagree! The take off roll is no time to be heads down staring at instruments, save cursory glances to verify power settings and check airspeed. If you cannot do it without reference to the libelle, you're Doing It Wrong. Besides, the ball is all but useless on the ground. If it has damping, it is too slow. If it doesn't, it'll be all over the place. By the time you've picked up enough of a yaw rate to show on the T&B gyro, you should already be headed for the grass. Then there's the small matter of picking up what's going on outside.

 

If this doesn't apply in the sim, well, it should. In addition, in real life it is much harder to switch focus from heads-down to heads-up, due to the quite significant time delay refocusing your vision. Try it, refocusing from a speck on the window to the outside world and back. Some systems which required rapid switching have had cockpit displays focused on infinity to get around this obstacle.

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I vehemently disagree!

 

I agree! With your disagreement, that is. I accordingly vehemently disagree too!

 

:P

 

OK - Jest aside, I have also found that I have no time nor faculties to be head-down glancing at that wee ball while on take-off. I take my visual cues from my surroundings outside the cockpit to ensure I'm on the straight and narrow (not clouds though, strangely enough).

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ive tried with intrumentation but can only do it at minimal power levels for takeoff. and even at that its not very straight. and well the PIO that occurs afterwards trying to change power is incredible. too dangerous.

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The turn and slip indicator (t&s) is an incredibly important instrument to help maintain coordinated flight once you are in the air. It is the entirely wrong place to be looking on the takeoff or landing roll. You maintain directional control by looking outside.

 

Btw amazes me how in rl some guys with loads of experience seem oblivious to this instrument (and the seat of the pants sensation) as the airplane careens cockeyed through the sky...

 

Oye.

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