Interesting Info on Migs vs. AMRAAMs

[GGTharos]

A lto of peopel seem to think that Serbian MiGs could have evaded AMRAAMs easily if they had funcitoning RWRs ... well,a ccoridng to this .... :

 

 

From here:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-6123.html

 

Yugoslav pilot testimony that they were shot down from their interviews with the Yugoslav media:

 

24th March 1999.

 

Lieutenant Pilot Milorad Milutinovic

 

"...despite having indication that I was illuminated, and that a missile was speeding to me, not wasting a second, I fired a missile on the closest aggressor plane. I tried to avoid the missile with a sharp turn, taking forces the likes of which I have never felt before. Only a few seconds later a powerful explosion shook my plane.

 

I radioed that the plane was hit and that I'll do anything to save it. however, the stick wasn't responding. I tried it a few times, but all was in vain. The aircraft fell toward the earth at great speed. There was nothing else to do but to pull the eject handle."

 

Lieutenant colonel Dragan Ilic

(TJ note: Ilic's MiG-29 was hit by an AMRAAM but managed to land his damaged aircraft on an airfield.)

 

"I had the signal that I was locked on by an enemy missile. A fireball pushed the plane and the aircraft shook. The cockpit glazing cracked and fogged. I didn't feel any changes in engine performance and I was thinking how to save the plane. I pointed the plane to my home airfield at low speed, around Mach 0,5. All would have been different if the cracked glazing failed, I would have to had to eject and sacrifice the Mig."

 

 

Lieutenant Colonel Iljo Arizanov

 

"-Then a missile hit me in the rear part of the plane that threw itself to the left and spiraled to the ground. I could not control the plane anymore. I saw in my rear-view mirror that a fire erupted. I ejected. When the parachute opened, I heard the plane above me."

 

Major Pilot Nebojsa Nikolic

 

"he avoided the first missile with a skilled maneuver, but a whole fiery cloud of them streamed towards his Mig. he was hit once, twice, three times. Soon his cockpit was full of smoke....

 

In a haze he maneuvered, although he was losing altitude. His view clouded in the smoke. His controls served him a little while longer. He deserved this little luck meant for the brave. Then he listened to his instinct and pulled the eject handle."

 

TJ note: Nikolic's MiG-29 wreck photographs can be seen on Venik's site. The aircraft came down in Vojvodina. Venik has on his site that the aircraft was downed by the Dutch F-16. This is in error. The Dutch F-16 pilot downed his MiG-29 in the Kosovo region. The serial of the MiG-29 was 18111.

 

USAF pilot eye-witness acounts of the action on 24th March 1999:

 

Lt. Colonel Rodriguez, F-15C pilot, USAF- on the events of 24th March stated:

 

"We located a MiG-29 that was coming out of the Pristina airspace. There was some confusion between the controllers and our formation. The confusion arose from not having trained together and from a slight language barrier. I handed him (MiG-29) off to my wingman who a very young - his very first

combat mission - who goes by the name of 'Wild Bill'. I've got the MiG on my radarscope and we take the shot. We couldn't see very far because we're not equipped with night vision equipment, but when the MiG-29 exploded the large orange fireball erupted and illuminates the western mountains, lighting up the sky. The first blood had been drawn on night one!"

 

Details from Capt. Shower's interview on the events of 24th March:

 

"Capt. Mike Shower, flying an F-15C, was escorting the first of two strike packages - one package flew into southern Serbia while Shower's package went north over Belgrade. The strike packages were made up of 10 F-117s and two B-2 bombers with escort coming from a total of eight F-15Cs and F-16CJs. Approximately four minutes into the mission, Shower said they heard a "Splash one MiG-29" (a MiG-29 has been shot down) call from Airborne Warning and Control System from the south strike package. We got a little excited at that point since there was no doubt the Serbians were going to launch their aircraft. Six minutes into the mission, the Captain's radar picture was complicated by an unidentified aircraft taking off from Batajinica Airfield, a MiG-29 base in northern Belgrade.. The Captain said the final shot illuminated his aircraft from the rocket plume so the F-117 pilot could tell the two aircraft were approximately 2,000 feet from each other. The missile

went right across the front of his aircraft down to the MiG-29 which blew up about 7,000 feet underneath the F-117. The MiG-29 crashed within 25 nautical miles of Batajnica Airfield."

[Kula66]

Interesting ...

I guess they have a slightly heroic slant ...

 

"he avoided the first missile with a skilled maneuver, but a whole fiery cloud of them streamed towards his Mig. he was hit once, twice, three times. Soon his cockpit was full of smoke....

 

This sounds like spamming to me ... I hope the Allied pilot was warned on arrival back at base :)

[GGTharos]

Nah, it's just a bit of BS ... I mean, what was the other guy doing? Sitting there watching and recording a track? ;) I doubt he even knew how many missiles were launched - if the guy dodged one, kudos, but for all we know, he only thought he did ... the dramatic description leads me to believe that it was BS for the media.

[ALDEGA]

More propaganda by GGTharos

[Cosmonaut]

What that tells me is that if you're up against a force that severely out numbers you and they're using AWACS, then don't take off.. ;)

 

Ps Are these forums slow or is it just my connection?

[Brit_Radar_Dude]

Seem slow today to me also, Cosmo.......

[KILSEK]

Hi all and GGTharos.

 

From here:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-6123.html

 

Yugoslav pilot testimony that they were shot down from their interviews with the Yugoslav media:

 

24th March 1999.

 

Lieutenant Pilot Milorad Milutinovic

 

"...despite having indication that I was illuminated, and that a missile was speeding to me, not wasting a second, I fired a missile on the closest aggressor plane. I tried to avoid the missile with a sharp turn, taking forces the likes of which I have never felt before. Only a few seconds later a powerful explosion shook my plane.

 

I radioed that the plane was hit and that I'll do anything to save it. however, the stick wasn't responding. I tried it a few times, but all was in vain. The aircraft fell toward the earth at great speed. There was nothing else to do but to pull the eject handle."

 

Lieutenant colonel Dragan Ilic

(TJ note: Ilic's MiG-29 was hit by an AMRAAM but managed to land his damaged aircraft on an airfield.)

 

"I had the signal that I was locked on by an enemy missile. A fireball pushed the plane and the aircraft shook. The cockpit glazing cracked and fogged. I didn't feel any changes in engine performance and I was thinking how to save the plane. I pointed the plane to my home airfield at low speed, around Mach 0,5. All would have been different if the cracked glazing failed, I would have to had to eject and sacrifice the Mig."

 

So what the article says is that the MiG-29 pilots had working RWR's, and Lieutenant Pilot Milorad Milutinovic waited to shoot the first missile for whatever reason, noticed he was locked on to and had a missile coming at him, then he decided to waste a missile, then pull an evasive 5-7-9g maneuver, by then it's too late and he is hit.

 

It sounds to me like a lack of training. Waiting to fire, for what? It is combat airspace, and I would bet he knew there were no others from his side up there. Ignoring the RWR and not trying to evade that right off the bat, where is his tactic? He don't climb, he don't dive, he don't alter his course one bit. he's just going to go toe to toe with his enemy. He doesn't say that he fires of any chaff so either he forgot or he did not have any. That's what I am getting from this.

 

Yep, I agree, Know Your Enemy.

 

-KILSEK

 

BTW, yeah its a slow connection. Do ya think it has anything to do with uploading the patch, huh do ya, huh, huh. ;)

[4cExpert]

o

 

Well thats NATO tactic!

 

10:1 or 100:1 what a force..

[Brit_Radar_Dude]

Not gonna get into the politics of it. It is history, you need to let it go, move on. Take an example from the Poles, Hungarians, Estonians, etc to be a democracy, join the EU, make some money, have a better lifestyle.

 

By the way, NATO tactics for over 40 years were to fight and win despite being outnumbered by the Warsaw Pact.....

[Pilotasso]

 

 

 

So what the article says is that the MiG-29 pilots had working RWR's, and Lieutenant Pilot Milorad Milutinovic waited to shoot the first missile for whatever reason, noticed he was locked on to and had a missile coming at him, then he decided to waste a missile, then pull an evasive 5-7-9g maneuver, by then it's too late and he is hit.

 

It sounds to me like a lack of training.

 

1) you dont know if he waited. All you know is that he got shot at first.

 

2)what makes you think his missile shot was a waste? you dont even know the range of the engagement neither the type of the missile.

[GGTharos]

Hi all and GGTharos.

 

 

 

So what the article says is that the MiG-29 pilots had working RWR's, and Lieutenant Pilot Milorad Milutinovic waited to shoot the first missile for whatever reason, noticed he was locked on to and had a missile coming at him, then he decided to waste a missile, then pull an evasive 5-7-9g maneuver, by then it's too late and he is hit.

 

It sounds to me like a lack of training. Waiting to fire, for what? It is combat airspace, and I would bet he knew there were no others from his side up there. Ignoring the RWR and not trying to evade that right off the bat, where is his tactic? He don't climb, he don't dive, he don't alter his course one bit. he's just going to go toe to toe with his enemy. He doesn't say that he fires of any chaff so either he forgot or he did not have any. That's what I am getting from this.

 

Yep, I agree, Know Your Enemy.

 

No, I don't think they were quite so incompetent.

Rather, I would couple this with the low amount of time you get when teh 120 goes active to react and the possibility that the 120 outranges the R-27 (the plain R27). Ie. I don't see it as him ignoring the RWR - he did exactly what he had to. Got the launch warning, and reacted to it immidiately by firing his missile and going defensive.

 

Here is the quote, read it carefully:

"despite having indication that I was illuminated, and that a missile was speeding to me, not wasting a second, I fired a missile on the closest aggressor plane"

 

This doesn't mean he waited and barreled straight intot he AMRAAM, it means that rather than simply panic and go defensive right then and there, he took the time to launch missile which may have cost him 2-3 seconds 'always fire back' ... that's the right thing to do. After that, you take your chances.

 

In which case, the guy is waiting to get within firing range, he gets spiked, pulls the trigger despite not being quiet where he wants to be, and tries to evade while maintaining lock. Classic advantage of ARH vs. SARH here, IMHO.

 

That his evasive tactics were not described in detail is not surprising: I have VERY rarely seen evasive tactics described in any sort of detail openly. Most of the time they surface from 'something that someone said somewhere'.

 

 

-KILSEK

 

BTW, yeah its a slow connection. Do ya think it has anything to do with uploading the patch, huh do ya, huh, huh. ;)

 

 

Nope.

[Pilotasso]

Well thats NATO tactic!

 

10:1 or 100:1 what a force..

 

Actualy the numbers force was an invention of the soviet union not NATO. Ironic aint it? ;)

 

Besides, the serbs planes were seriously demodeé, at least their onboard systems were, the mig-21's and under types arent even worth to mention.you cant work miracles with obsolete hardware in a scenario of 50:1 disavantage.

[KILSEK]

Hi all.

 

First off, you're right. I "looked down" on this pilot. You are absolutely right, He is not incompetent. I apologize.

 

After re-reading this, I understand what you are saying now. It is a good read, but leaves much info out.

 

I am still curious about the RWR. The Mig-29 is going against a F-15. It illuminates him, meaning the Eagle sees the Fulcrum but has not fired. The RWR in the Fulcrum shows a spike at whatever. Isn't there be a period of time(say 1-1/2 to 2 minutes) from when the Eagle first finds, tracks, and locks onto you, then fires? In that period of time, the Fulcrum pilot knows he is detected, up to the point where the AMRAAM goes active, wouldn't you try to break the lock thru whatever means, all the while getting yourself into a good position to fire? But if the Eagle is in TWS, he can fire the AMRAAM without lock which cuts down the reaction time and allow the missile to get close without being detected and evaded. This is what you mean by lack of detail. That's the thing with sim's, you really don't get much factual data to use for modelling purposes.

 

As far as wasting the missile. First I read it as though he did not have a lock so yeah, he may be wasting the missile. After re-reading it, he says, he fires on the closest aggressor. So apparently he knows both of their distances and may have a lock. Again, you're right, always fire back. The only thing I do know about the distance of the engagement is that one jet has fired a missile and the other has not.

 

FWIW, I looked at that site you posted and it looks like it sparked quite a spirited conversation there too.

 

-KILSEK

[schimmel]

True, no distance is mentioned in there. And that the serbian pilots were untrained is unquestionable. This country was finished by years of war and sanctions. It really amazes me that they even had kerosene for the war. I'm not even talking about training.

 

I don't want to get further into politics now. This war has created wounds which have not yet cured in Europe. So especially mentioning it in this forum is a little tricky ;).

[Alfa]

I don't want to get further into politics now.

 

Good man :)

 

This war has created wounds which have not yet cured in Europe. So especially mentioning it in this forum is a little tricky ;).

 

Yes I agree - so far so good, but I am watching this one.

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[GGTharos]

Hi all.

 

First off, you're right. I "looked down" on this pilot. You are absolutely right, He is not incompetent. I apologize.

 

After re-reading this, I understand what you are saying now. It is a good read, but leaves much info out.

 

I am still curious about the RWR. The Mig-29 is going against a F-15. It illuminates him, meaning the Eagle sees the Fulcrum but has not fired. The RWR in the Fulcrum shows a spike at whatever. Isn't there be a period of time(say 1-1/2 to 2 minutes) from when the Eagle first finds, tracks, and locks onto you, then fires? In that period of time, the Fulcrum pilot knows he is detected, up to the point where the AMRAAM goes active, wouldn't you try to break the lock thru whatever means, all the while getting yourself into a good position to fire?

 

I think, to get a better idea of this, try going up against an F-15 (piloted by a human) in a MiG-29A (NOT S!) and try to use that tactic. Make sure said human is competent. I think you'll get a better idea then - and remember, you must defend the motherland, you're not playing a game.

While the LOMAC AMRAAM is not as smart as the real one (Note: IMHO) it should give you an approximate idea of what was happening.

 

But if the Eagle is in TWS, he can fire the AMRAAM without lock which cuts down the reaction time and allow the missile to get close without being detected and evaded. This is what you mean by lack of detail. That's the thing with sim's, you really don't get much factual data to use for modelling purposes.

 

Furthermore, the eagles may have lit them up for literally a few seconds before firing on command from AWACS, but I really doubt this. And yes, that's what I mean by lack of detail.

 

As far as wasting the missile. First I read it as though he did not have a lock so yeah, he may be wasting the missile. After re-reading it, he says, he fires on the closest aggressor. So apparently he knows both of their distances and may have a lock. Again, you're right, always fire back. The only thing I do know about the distance of the engagement is that one jet has fired a missile and the other has not.

 

Yeah, and if he had contacts to choose from, that means he didn't have a lock initially (because once in STT you lose the other contact). Still I think the fact that he fired second (ie when the 120 start homing in fact) should tell you -something- about the range of the R-27R, at least, something speculation-worthy, but you're right, definitely not conclusive.

 

FWIW, I looked at that site you posted and it looks like it sparked quite a spirited conversation there too.

 

-KILSEK

 

INdeed. The blood was flowing and most of them didn't have half a clue ;)

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

NATO (read United States of America) had 1200 aircraft in the theater against some 120-130 Yugoslavian aircraft! At any given moment, for any ONE Yugoslavian aircraft in the air there were at least 10 American airplanes in the air!

 

So only politicians (such as Clinton and his followers) would be proud of American aerial “victory” over Yugoslavia! Real soldiers and pilots don’t talk much about it!

 

I also invite GGTharos over to the “Fleim” portion of this forum to continue talking about NATO aggression over Yugoslavia!

 

Regards,

[D-Scythe]

NATO (read United States of America) had 1200 aircraft in the theater against some 120-130 Yugoslavian aircraft! At any given moment, for any ONE Yugoslavian aircraft in the air there were at least 10 American airplanes in the air!

 

So only politicians (such as Clinton and his followers) would be proud of American aerial “victory” over Yugoslavia! Real soldiers and pilots don’t talk much about it!

 

I also invite GGTharos over to the “Fleim” portion of this forum to continue talking about NATO aggression over Yugoslavia!

 

Regards,

 

Firstly, NATO had 12 (later 18) F-15Cs in theatre. The Serbs had 12 MiG-29As and 2 MiG-29UBs.

 

Secondly, why is anyone surprised that a F-15C with AIM-120s would win against a MIG-29A? I don't get it.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Firstly, NATO had 12 (later 18) F-15Cs in theatre.

And doezens of F-18s, and doezens of F-16's and Hungarians MiG-29's and four AWACS (one was always in the air) and ... On the end, there was 10 NATO aircraft for every ONE Yugoslavian!

 

Secondly, why is anyone surprised that a F-15C with AIM-120s would win against a MIG-29A? I don't get it.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make! Only a politician, not a pilot or a soldier, would bring this for a discussion! I've been watching discovery wings for more then two years now! There is no a single show on Discovery Wings about NATO bombing of yugoslavia! There was a show few montsh ago about the unsuccesfull attempt to deploye Longbow over Kosovo! A that was it!

 

It looks like to me there is no many NATO pilots really proud of what they did over Yugoslavia!

 

I also invite everybody else to continue this discusion here:

http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=10749

[GGTharos]

No, you're trying to make a completely different point, and you completely missed the point of the thread.

 

Don't try to hijack it, just don't bother responding here unless you have something relevant to contribute; this isn't a thread for politics, it's about missiles and RWRs.

[GGTharos]

Secondly, why is anyone surprised that a F-15C with AIM-120s would win against a MIG-29A? I don't get it.

 

 

A lot of people speculated/viciously defended a theory that AMRAAM could be easily dodged with a functioning RWR onboard the target aircraft (it was often said that the MiGs were in such poor condition that the RWRs didn't work) ... get it now? ;)

[D-Scythe]

A lot of people speculated/viciously defended a theory that AMRAAM could be easily dodged with a functioning RWR onboard the target aircraft (it was often said that the MiGs were in such poor condition that the RWRs didn't work) ... get it now? ;)

 

Hmm, still don't get it ;) Why on earth would anyone think it's easy to dodge an AIM-120 fired from its NEZ? There is no foundation for such a speculation anyway, and to visciously preach a theory that the AIM-120 can be easily evaded is pretty stupid, IMO :D

[Prophet_169th]

What that tells me is that if you're up against a force that severely out numbers you and they're using AWACS, then don't take off.. ;)

 

Ps Are these forums slow or is it just my connection?

 

So you can be bombed by a successive strike?

 

They should be applauded for having the bravery to stand and fight such odds. It may be suicide, but at least its better than strapping a bomb to your torso and letting go on a bus.

[Prophet_169th]

And doezens of F-18s, and doezens of F-16's and Hungarians MiG-29's and four AWACS (one was always in the air) and ... On the end, there was 10 NATO aircraft for every ONE Yugoslavian!

 

 

That is exactly the point I was trying to make! Only a politician, not a pilot or a soldier, would bring this for a discussion! I've been watching discovery wings for more then two years now! There is no a single show on Discovery Wings about NATO bombing of yugoslavia! There was a show few montsh ago about the unsuccesfull attempt to deploye Longbow over Kosovo! A that was it!

 

It looks like to me there is no many NATO pilots really proud of what they did over Yugoslavia!

 

I also invite everybody else to continue this discusion here:

http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=10749

 

Its war, not the playground.

 

Why would anyone want to talk about killing people? Not a very fab topic to those who have done it I am sure.

[RvEFoxteR]

Evaluating what really happened up there by us is complete rubbish. Did any of u actually sit in the cockpit of Mig29 and get fired upon no matter what missile it is? I know I didn't and Im sure nobody of u did it too. What u hear on TV and read on internet about the missile specs can be a pure propaganda. I'm not saying Aim120 is a crap missile, on the contrary its probably the most lethal missile in the world nowdays but hearing you guys say the yugoslav pilots were untrained thats complete BS. You cannot make an objective judgement which pilot was "better" NATO or serbs just because it was not a 1v1 fight it was at least 10v1 fight...now in that case scenario the serbian pilot probably felt like a B52 going against an F15 in dogfight lol. Im sure serbian pilots did their very best I applaud their courage. Not many people will agree with me but former yugoslavian pilots (when yugoslavia was still formed) were one of the best pilots in the world...only because of lack of funds their air force was small but not incompetent. Actually the pilots who flew planes like Mig29A they were the best there is coz that was their best plane. Ive read an article of a serbian colonel who went up against the NATO forces with 2 majors on his both wings, and then he realised his RWR was mulfunctioning. Even though both majors had their plane avionics functional and said to the colonel that they painted few dozen of enemy aircraft ahead the colonel ordered them to RTB and he went in there himself lol. Then he got spiked by 2 tornados who followed him straight away probably calling fighters support. The poor old guy didnt had nothing to do but to save his ass and he started flying in some very tight canyon who only he knew about coz he knew the country like the back of his hand. The canyon was so tight that tornado pilots lost him and then they disengaged. The colonel returned his plane safely to base. The most funny part was the quote he said in the end (lol I was lughing my arse off on this one) he said "can't wait to land this plane to put my boot up that idiot technician's ass who let me fly with a broken radar". Lol I loved that article, it was a whole book written by testimonians of that conflict.