Two MS FFB2 with Cougar Grip

[C6_Hellfrog]

with only 1 FFB, return to center is not trim but normal behaviour of stick without FFB, only trim order in DCS send FFB orders to stick didn't payed attention with both connected and can't retest because of unmounting...

[ArtMan_NL]

Very weird problem which I can´t declare Why is a double msffb stick behaving different than one msffb?

 

 

I have been thinking whole day about it and the answer is very logical...... Honestly I must say it is just very stupid I didn't think about it.

 

The lower msffb is behaving different because we erased the X and the Y axis in the settings. For this reason the lower msffb isn't "powered" off if you push the trim button. The motors just deliver a certain power but are just movable with a certain resistance.

 

The upper msffb has the X and the Y axis assigned in the settings. So this one will move without any resistance when you push the trim button. After releasing the button the motors will get power (gain) again holding the stick into position.

 

After all the function of the lower msffb is just holding the 1,5 kg weight and pass the "force" of this weight through to the upper msffb. The question asking myself is now: do you really need the circuitboards for the lower msffb? There isn't any axis or other function assigned to this joystick........... The counterweight is the magic.....

 

Well its all very theoretically what I am writing here but helps if you run against some problems. :smartass: I'm not sure if I am right and wish I had a good friendship with one of the developers responsible for the flightcontrols section :joystick:

 

/Arthur

Edited April 1, 2014 by ArtMan_NL

[ArtMan_NL]

Ok I have been testing last evening and my lower msffb is slamming to one of the corners instead of centralizing itself when I plug in the usb cable.

 

Wiring is good.

 

The story continues..... ;-)

[molevitch]

Same as mine!

 

I am considering returning my lower ffb to its original wiring set up, and then putting plug connectors on ALL wires so I dont have to keep unsoldering them to test and retest!

Edited April 2, 2014 by molevitch

[ArtMan_NL]

Same as mine!

 

I am considering returning my lower ffb to its original wiring set up, and then putting plug connectors on ALL wires so I dont have to keep unsoldering them to test and retest!

 

 

I did that but it didn't fix the problem. I'm considering to use my third and spare ffb for testing.

 

Very weird problem which I can't explain.....

 

Unfortunately I don't have time to look after it today :(

 

 

/Arthur

[ArtMan_NL]

Idiots guide for PeterP MSFFB2*2 Mod.

 

Finally I find a solution for the problems I mentioned in the older posts.

 

I have to say that I was sometimes totally tumble weed after fighting with the wires :smilewink:

 

Before I start with the guide I have to say that it is a dangerous operation for non-technicians. You are working with a unshielded printed circuit board with a very high voltage. Accidental touch of those boards can cause death.

 

Doing this mod is at your own risk. So don't blame me if you are touching a 220~240 Volt Printed circuit board.

 

Over here you see a part of my test bench:

 

Edited April 3, 2014 by ArtMan_NL

[ArtMan_NL]

Things you need.

 

As PeterP already mentioned you need a couple of things to make this mod.

 

1. 2 pieces of Microsoft Force Feedback 2 joysticks (USB plug!!!)
   
2. Some tools.
   
3. 4 pieces of frame's PeterP mentioned which you can buy at Conrad. Please see the previous posts.
   
4. 4 pieces of M4 allan bolts, 8 M4 rings and 4 M4 self-locking nuts
   
5. A nice case for your modded stick. I bought 18 mm MDF and make my case self.
   
6. Other stuf you like to add to your stick.
   

 

The frame's from Conrad are great because they are very strong and give you the right distance between the gears. I used 2 m4 bolts each frame to connect to each other. Be aware there is a lot of power in those motors. They are expansive but just buy them. I used M4 self-locking nuts to tighten up the frame's.

 

Edited April 2, 2014 by ArtMan_NL

[ArtMan_NL]

Start with upper MSFFB2

 

Oké, First start with disassemble the upper msffb2 and make a test bench the way I did:

 

 

This test bench gives you a good view on everything.

 

If you have the inside of the MSFFB (frame with mounted motors) you have to take off the small gears from the motors. The best what you can do is using a disk puller. Working with screwdrivers will cause to much stress on the axis from the motor causing damage inside the motor.

 

Just go to a local garage with your frame and ask for a disk puller or make your own tool. Probably the spindle of the disk puller is far to thick but if you take a screw with the same diameter as the axis, you can put that between the spindle and the axis from the motor.

 

When the gear is off you can mount the Conrad frames. Before doing so it is strongly recommended to mount the two frames to each other. Space is very limited and now you have enough room to tighten up the screws and nuts.

 

Mount the Conrad frames between the motors and the original MSFFB frame. You can use the same black screws from the motor. They are just long enough. Best is to use some Loctite to prevent losing through vibration.

 

After assembling the motors and Conrad frames you can mount the unit in the test bench. For testing you can do the PeterP methos to fasten the frame with 7 cm plywood screws.

 

As a technician I can say this is to weak but for testing its oke right now. Later on I will show you a better solution. :music_whistling:

 

Now you can connect the PCB's. I use only wiring for the potentiometers, USB cable, Motor plug and power led. Everything else I don't use like PeterP is doing with all those wires. Later on I use my Thrustmaster Cougar and that is enough for my brains. More buttons won't work for me ;)

 

Please, see the picture below for the wires I use. As you see I took out the MSFFB grip detector. You just don't need it and I cut it off.

 

 

Another picture of the test bench:

 

[ArtMan_NL]

First test run upper MSFFB

 

After finishing the things you did in the previous posts it is time for the first test run.

 

1. Re-check the wires. Be aware for the power circuit board. 220 Volts!
   
2. Plug in the power cable. Do not touch the cicuit boards !!!!
   
3. Switch on your rig. Does it have enough USB ports?
   
4. Plug in the USB cable.
   

 

The MSFFB will centre itself. The power led is shining red but can be switch off after a few seconds after internal check by Windows. (XP, 7 or 8, all will work and have drivers !!)

 

When something is wrong with the potentiometers the stick will slam to one of the corners.

 

That means you fu**ed up something. Probably a short circuit between the potentiometer and the house of the motor. Distance is very little and it isn't well engineered in my point of view. :music_whistling:

 

Remember: when you check the wires pull out the powercable from the outlet and pull out the USB cable from your rig.

 

 

Well, it is time to fire up DCS world and Black Shark. For testing purposes I was using my old BS2 copy. The one without DCS world. I expect it will work in DCS world 1.2.7 as well.

 

First go to the options menu, choose Black Shark SIM, choose axis commands, and check if FFB is on and check the swap controls check mark.

 

Choose a mission were the shark is on the ground but with running engines. For me it was the Gaunlet mission.

 

Do a right - control - enter. This will show you the red controls mini hud.

 

When you press on the upper arrow key you see the diamond goes up in the red controls mini hud.

 

When you have a look at your test bench MSFFB you will see the stick is going forward as well. Now take that black small mini stick of your msffb touch "T" on your keyboard and be shure it is functioning like an out of the box MSFFB2. After releasing the button "T" from your keyboard the stick stays on the place where you left it behind.

 

Please don't care about the shark. It will crash but there are plenty of them.

 

Yes, as you can see now the controls are synchronized which will be a great help for further testing.

 

 

Will be continued....

Edited April 3, 2014 by ArtMan_NL

[sydost]

Now this is something :) . Thanks ArtMan. Keep the good info coming.

 

I have two MSFFB2s waiting for the day (or week) I have enough time to start working.

[ArtMan_NL]

Now this is something :) . Thanks ArtMan. Keep the good info coming.

 

I have two MSFFB2s waiting for the day (or week) I have enough time to start working.

 

After this guide it will be a piece of cake :thumbup:

[molevitch]

Hi Artman,

 

Looks like you are doing a thorough instruction manual! Most important will be a complete re-wiring diagram for lower FFB, to show motors and pots. I re-did my wiring last night, and you were right, my pots were wrongly wired. But, bizarrely, this only became a problem recently, with the stick pulling to the corners.

 

The trim function is still screwy though, and I need a heavier counterweight to keep the stick from wobbling once trimmed. I may redo the stick extension to keep the grip less offset from centre. Right now, the weight of the grip is enough to move it off trim.

 

Have you tried SimFFB? I have just been experimenting with it, and it does give a cleaner feel to the ffb.

 

I also feel I am not getting much "punch" to the ffb in DCS. Feels a bit lame. Do you know of any way to increase that from within DCS? In SimFFb you have sliders to increase and decrease the forces.

[ArtMan_NL]

Hi Artman,

 

......Most important will be a complete re-wiring diagram for lower FFB, to show motors and pots. I re-did my wiring last night, and you were right, my pots were wrongly wired. But, bizarrely, this only became a problem recently, with the stick pulling to the corners. ......

 

You are probably right. I had the same problems when I followed PeterP´s guide. Thats why I said I was totally tumble weed. I hope, when I continue with my guide, others can check it and confirm the wiring is OK. I will continue with my guide

 

The trim function is still screwy though, and I need a heavier counterweight to keep the stick from wobbling once trimmed. I may redo the stick extension to keep the grip less offset from centre. Right now, the weight of the grip is enough to move it off trim.

 

Did you do the seperate checks? First test your upper MSFFB with the lower one powered off and unplugged from your rig which I descried above?

 

Then do the same check for the lower MSFFB and unplug the upper one from the power and the usb.

 

I have a feeling you didn´t wired the motors in the right way because I had that too :(

 

I hope I do have some time in the evening to continue with my guide. You are a nice test case :)

 

I did some tests yesterday afternoon and the trimming went well.

 

Have you tried SimFFB? I have just been experimenting with it, and it does give a cleaner feel to the ffb.

 

Hmm, not sure. maybe a long time ago. I will give it a go when I finished this mega project.

 

I also feel I am not getting much "punch" to the ffb in DCS. Feels a bit lame. Do you know of any way to increase that from within DCS? In SimFFb you have sliders to increase and decrease the forces.

 

Hmmm, I´m almost sure the motors are fighting against each other. That means wrong wiring.

 

As an advice I suggest you wait till I publish some pictures about the wiring. Please be patient :thumbup::)

 

/Arthur

Edited April 3, 2014 by ArtMan_NL

[C6_Hellfrog]

keep up the good work guys ! it will save many time to other people interesting in this mod like me, and hopefully will discard many troubles

[ArtMan_NL]

Lower MSFFB

 

OK, after an intensive test of your upper MSFFB we are going to mount the lower one.

 

Please, do not forget to take the power plug out and the USB plug from the upper MSFFB2

 

Because you mounted the blue Conrad frames already in the first stage it is very easy and comfortable to mount the lower MSFBB. By pushing the motors through the mounting hole where they intend to be the whole part will be right adjusted. Tight the black bolts with a fitting screwdriver.

 

Now, please have a look at the picture:

 

 

Before you tight the screws be absolutely sure the small "sticks" are in a straight line. Be very precise otherwise one of the two units will hit the end stopper of the frame giving extra stress on the gears.

 

Well.... :D Now its time to show you the long awaited wiring.

 

Please see picture below:

 

 

When mixing up with those wires you can cause damage to the potentiometer. The RED and the Green wires are always in the middle of the other wires. PeterP gave us an perfect description of the function of those potentiometers.

 

If you want to experiment with the wires only change brown and orange with each other and Yellow and Blue with each other. When the wires are wrong the stick will slam to one of the corners. Why? Because when you plug in the power cable and after that the USB cable the windows driver will initialize the stick to its zero (centre) point. When you mixed up with the wiring the potentiometer will give a wrong value to the print. The cpu will then try to force the stick to its centre giving a lot f stress to the gears.

 

So, after slamming immediately pull out the USB plug from your rig and do further investigation. But before doing that we have to change the motor wires. Do not plug in any cable right now...

[ArtMan_NL]

Wiring the motors lower MSFFB2

 

The plug from the motors are on the other side of the print.

 

Please face the plug in font of you and have a look at the wires:

 

 

By the way I didn't cut any wires. I push out the connectors very carefully. I used a tool like this on the picture below.

 

 

 

After changing the wires it is time for further testing :joystick:

 

BE AWARE: keep out the cables from the upper MSFFB2 when you test the lower one. Otherwise the test will fail.

 

Plug in the power cable and the usb cable in your rig.

 

Does the MSFFB centre it self or does it slam to one of the corners? If so please re-check the wires of your potentiometers. Stay the stick in the centre? Well congratulate yourself. You have had the most difficult part of this project :)

 

Now we are doing the same test as we have done before with the upper MSFFB.

 

But there is an other very important part in your setup needed !!

 

ERASE all the settings in the controls tab for this MSFFB. Especially the X axis and Y axis but do not forget to enable the FFB and the swap axis option

 

Now it is time for starting the Gauntlet mission where the Shark is waiting for you with running engines.

 

Do a Right-Control-Enter to fire up the red controls mini hud.

 

Press on your keyboard the upper arrow key and look at the Diamond in the controls mini hud. It should go upwards.

 

When the Diamond goes upwards look what your stick is doing. Don't look at the lower stick but, just like before with testing the upper MSFFB, at your upper stick. It doesn't make you tumble weed and saves you calculation in directions of the sticks.

 

Because the upper MSFFB hasn't any power it is just slaved on the lower stick.

 

If the engine wires are OK the stick will make the same direction as the upper stick in the first testing phase. Make also an left and right stick test. The stick should behave itself as the upper MSFFB with testing.

 

As an example, I had some trouble here :) When I pushed the upper arrow key on the keyboard my lower stick went in the X axis direction. NO GOOD at all. After a simple wire change at the motors everything was OK.

 

So, as a reminder:

 

• When you stick slam to the corners the wires from the potentiometers are wrong connected.
   
  
• When the stick is going in a wrong direction you made an fault with the motor wires.
  

 

Do also an testing with the trim (T on your keyboard). But the diamond won't move this time because you erased the X-axis and Y-axis in the controls tab. You didn't forget that part of this manual heh? :book:

Edited April 4, 2014 by ArtMan_NL

[ArtMan_NL]

I hope I made some parts clear of this nice mod. I think this was the most important part but I will continue while I'm building this stick.

 

As a pay back I expect input from you guys. Don't let it be one way communication but give feedback with your wiring. Please let me know if the wiring I showed here is working.

 

Please do not ask questions if it is written in the manual. Take your time and read the manual twice or print it out and put it near your test bench.

 

For the English speaking guys: forgive my European Style English. It is not my native language :smilewink:

 

After all: I would like to thank PeterP for this great mod. For me this guy is a kind of Einstein for DCS. I haven't seen him some time here on the forum so I hope he didn't give up DCS.

 

/Arthur

Edited April 3, 2014 by ArtMan_NL

[molevitch]

Very good!

 

I was doing tests, re-soldered my lower motors again, all going well, BUT... now my upper FFB power connector pcb seems to have died!!! AAAAgh.

 

I am lucky, though. I have 2 spare MSFFBs. So....

 

The story continues....

[ArtMan_NL]

Very good!

 

I was doing tests, re-soldered my lower motors again, all going well, BUT... now my upper FFB power connector pcb seems to have died!!! AAAAgh.

 

I am lucky, though. I have 2 spare MSFFBs. So....

 

The story continues....

 

 

You made a short circuit on the power pcb? :music_whistling:

 

So? your wiring was wrong? Only the potentiometers or your motors as well?

 

I hope the guide will solve your problems. I'm very curious about your progress.

 

Good luck :thumbup:

[molevitch]

Turns out the only fried pcb is in my head. Forgot to plug in the usb....Doh!

 

So anyhow, the top stick is fine, trim works fine, stick moves in sync with moving arrow keys. Thumbs up!

[molevitch]

ALL GOOD!!!

 

WOOHOO! Thank you Artman for your help with this.

Edited April 3, 2014 by molevitch

[C6_Hellfrog]

having a question about size to plan this mod :

what is the total height from counterweight base to upper of the stick case ?

with the counter weight moving, what is the diameter of this move ( to see the min wide and long of the case) ?

[ArtMan_NL]

ALL GOOD!!!

 

WOOHOO! Thank you Artman for your help with this.

 

 

Congratulations ! So you have the same wiring as me now? :pilotfly:

 

Great!

[ArtMan_NL]

having a question about size to plan this mod :

what is the total height from counterweight base to upper of the stick case ?

with the counter weight moving, what is the diameter of this move ( to see the min wide and long of the case) ?

 

Good question. The weight should be around 1,5 kg like PeterP calculated. I kept his dimensions about the casing. It is about 25 x 25 x 25 cm. PeterP has these dimensions too.

 

Please see below for the sizes. I did a miss calculation for my situation.

 

After I assemble my case I'll be absolutely sure.

 

/Arthur

Edited April 4, 2014 by ArtMan_NL

[molevitch]

Good question. The weight should be around 1,5 kg like PeterP calculated. I kept his dimensions about the casing. It is about 25 x 25 x 25 cm. PeterP has these dimensions too.

 

After I assemble my case I'll be absolutely sure.

 

/Arthur

Made my casing from 9mm mdf. Make your internal measures 25mm x 25mm x 28mm high. Extra room is helpful when fitting it all in! Am looking at casting a lead weight for a nw counter weight.