Linux - Native or via Wine

[Moa]

I can't imagine running a flight simulator like DCS on anything other than a powerful desktop system with specialized peripherals (TrackIR, HOTAS, ...)

 

You can't. Other people can. The economics will select the platform the masses choose. People are chosing tablets in addition to the PC for the moment. Soon the majority will not need a PC (or laptop).

 

Disclaimer: I've been using and developing on Linux since kernel version 0.20 (not a typo), now use a Mac Book Pro (and Java) as my main development system, and have multiple Windows 7 machines as well (Windows is getting better these days) including the stallturn VNAO (FC2) and stallturn DCS servers (currently hosting another 'FlyIn' event). However, I understand that I, like most simmers, are in a niche. We will always buy whatever ED puts out, we will spend a lot of money on TrackIR, and TM Warthog, and TM MFDS, and pedals, and great hardware etc etc. But we are a tiny minority of gamers and it makes sense to target the many and then worry about also targetting the minority too if you can (which I believe you can), but targetting only the niche (Linux servers) is not the way you *start*. Even as a Linux guy demanding a Linux-only dedicated server doesn't make sense to me - a portable server does.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Moa

[EtherealN]

Agreed with Moa.

 

Regarding Post-PC, I'd say it's overhyped but is indeed happening. If you give smartphones the ability to wirelessly hook up to peripherals and for example a smart TV with no user intervention, you suddenly exploded the need for my mother to have a PC. My dad already has an iPad and nothing else - he doesn't need anything else for business or home use. (Since he's not the one writing the pesky documentation, he has people doing that for him, grrr....)

 

It's not here yet, but it's happening. Will it make the PC obsolete? No. Not now and not for a long time. But for most users there will pretty soon not be much of a reason at all to own a PC. That's the whole thing with "post-PC" - the things we used to be doing with a PC is getting integrated with a small, portable device we use for other things (ie, the phone), and as long as people don't need top-line gaming performance or an actual productivity workstation... Why get a PC?

 

People who attack the "Post-PC" concept too often get stuck in thinking about people like us here on this forum, who are self-selected through being nerds towards not being the people it's all about.

 

Think of it like this: for a while now a lot of people have been using PC's not for what we use them for, just normal banking, mail, youtube and some facebook action. There is nothing in those, except for some minor issues with peripherals and such userfriendliness issues, that require a PC. Absolutely nothing. However, I don't see this killing the PC per se - what it'll kill if anything is the lower-level laptops like netbooks and really cheap notebooks - that is, it'll replace what until relatively recently didn't even exist.

[Moa]

With the trend for most people moving to phones/tablets/lightweight laptops for work and routine tasks that leaves bigger PCs only for gamers. Many gamers have a PC and a console but an increasing number have a console instead of a PC, since they only play console games (ugh!).

 

That means that as time goes on the high-end PC will only be used for gaming and general computing. Even unrestricted general purpose computing may decrease in the future (become more of a niche). There is an interesting article on Slashdot about a talk by a guy called Cory Doctorow about how the "Coming War on General Purpose Computing". An interesting read for sure:

https://github.com/jwise/28c3-doctorow/blob/master/transcript.md transcript

http://boingboing.net/2011/12/27/the-coming-war-on-general-purp.html

 

Here's the Slashdot link (if you are interested in the comments):

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/12/30/2159200/doctorow-the-coming-war-on-general-purpose-computing

 

As much as I like open systems it appears it'll be an uphill battle to keep them - our governments and large corporates want to lock them down. This makes will make software portability even more important in the future, IMHO. The openness battle has not yet been lost, but it is a threat that is coming, and portability gives the ability to adapt.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Moa

[sobek]

Got a link to your band? I'm sure a lot of us would enjoy your live music.

 

As soon as there's a recording worth showing off i'll think about it. ;)

[joey45]

^^ It don't matter. Post it anyway.

[Nu-NRG]

I'd kill for dedicated server that can run on linux :D

[joey45]

^^ so would most other people here..

[shagrat]

Aggreed, a dedicated server on linux is tempting. Anyway the request was for a Desktop linuxcompatible version of DCS.

As much as I like the idea (yep, have the Windows solely for DCS!), the point was already made: If the vendors for specialised Hardware like TrackIR, TM Warthog etc. don't provide drivers or better open source support and source codes the idea is doomed.

 

The topic of "post-PC" is very interesting if you see what happens to the "Gaming market"... the amount of games produced for smartphones and tablets/iPads is increasing quickly, whereas PC is loosing ground constantly.

 

Even consoles like XBOX or Playstation loose ground to the "casual games" for smartphones and iPads.

 

Where do we see the Simulations market in this picture? As a niche not only as what kind of game, but more sooner than later on a hardware platform that is a niche in itself?

 

Now let us consider what would happen if we could buy a "dedicated", specialised DCS PC with a "specialised" FlightSim Linux, supporting, better including ALL simming hardware for, let's say $900 respectively $1.600 with TM Warthog, Pedals, TrackIR and Headset included!... tempting? I would say so!

 

What do you guys think? :music_whistling:

[xhaos]

the biggest problem I can see is where anyone will find programming folk that know equally well DirX programming and openGL to reprogram everything. It will be a huge waste of resources.

A linux server on the other hand that only supports the synchronization of the clients and the netcode and the mission / campaign might be doable.

[samirpiccolotto]

I agree when you all say: "windows is 400%; linux is 0,005% of the market"... ...but linux used to be 0,00000000001% of the market back in the early 90's...

 

And, i am not a professional programmer; in fact, i work with network and system admin and as a data security (i basically just code to make my life easier); so, please, dont tell me Windows is Stable... ...it may be getting better (which aint hard... ...cause it used to suck a lot... ...now it's just suckin less...)

 

And i DO agree 300% with the fella that said: "Portable games aint a cost; it brings profit!". That is what i am tryin to say. And i DO thank you for all the words!

 

When it comes to x%... ...i bet most of the people dont play DCS games; maybe cause DCS are harder games, almost a full/complete sim; with a long learning curve. Of course, for me, it's super nice and challenging to play DCS stuff; but, most of the people will think it's frustratin or someth as emo as that word...

 

It's like... ...most people play Dirt3 and a few play Richard Burns Rally... ...get on wheels and feel whch one is harder, more complex, and more "sim like".

 

Another thing: if you have a good product / game / food... ...the more of the market you can bite, the better. It's all about money...

 

I have more than 50 games here; around 40 i can play on linux, using wine... ...and none are pirate ones! all bought. I do agree that to avoid piracy is nice, and smart, but, i dont like StarForce... (just my point of view)

 

Another thing: Gnome vs Kde? I use Enlightenment E17 (used to enjoy more gnome, pre gnome3, tho...) ...vi vs emacs, i use nano and sometimes, VI, but, honestly, if i was just starting to use/learn Linux today, i'd stick with Emacs... ...way more powerfull!

 

Another thing: i didnt say sound engine = xmms (but i did laugh when i read it)! LoL

 

And, to port someth, when you have the source code aint impossible... ...it will make the coders sweat and drink a shitton of coffee; but it is easier than to port someth disassembling it, and things like that... (without its source code)

 

If it is worth ($$$$) or not, i am not an investor... ...i just think you're addin value to your product when it reaches another platforms and another slices of the market...

 

Just to tell, i have a Nokia N9 mobile, and i DO know how hard is to find an APP for that shit... lol! Do i care? Yes... ...but, at least, i am happy with that mobile (and i know Nokia N9 was born dead, killed by Nokia)! lol

 

PS: when it comes to hardware and drivers... ...dont even tell me that... ...get an ATI Card and play with its linux drivers... ...some 10 years gettin ownd by ATI, on linux! Now, go get something without any sort of linux drivers... ...it will kill you so slowly you wont even notice! :-(

 

To be honest, i just made a suggestion that i DO know it has 0,0000000001% of happening... ...anyway, i'll ask for it!!!

[xi]

One way to go might be to convince Starforce to support wine. Since they sell bigger numbers than ED that might even pay off.

 

For me BS ist also the main reason to keep a copy of windows around, thanks to MSDNAA... I would hate to have to pay for it.

Edited January 20, 2012 by xi

[xi]

As far as i followed the story, Black Shark (1.02) uses steam DRM under steam. This would open up the possibility to run it under linux using wine. Has anybody already tried this? Would be interesting, since today they sell BS 1.02 for 66% off.

[Migow]

why linux gaming dev is hell http://braid-game.com/news/2008/08/misc-linux-questions/

 

sound engine on linux is hell because of an awful api (alsa always break compatibility , audio server bazard ...)

 

IED worse than visual studio

gcc take too much time to compile ... the program compiled is slower

gdb -> cryptic symbol

auto hell :megalol:

opengl now: too much bug , less performant (driver , but also api conception) need to use opengl...

 

x server awful: lack some feature that is needed on game dev

[MustangSally]

Will never happen, at least not in my life time.

[xi]

Tried the steam version with wine 1.3.37... menu and mission editor are working, but it crashes while loading the main game, when the progress meter reaches about a third.

 

But wine generally is not so bad... I just read that Portal 2 and IL-2 Sturmovik 1946 are working nicely (downloading steam versions right now..) ... ARMA II is beginning to work somewhat... so it will be another year till it is playable.

 

So I would guess, that with some support from the developers it should be realistic to make dcs wine compatible... but since they use starforce this probably won't happen.

[T_X]

Hmm, just found my dusty Lock-on Flaming Cliffs CD in my cupboard and got a little sentimental... However, seemingly like some other people, too, I cannot play it anymore, as I've dumped Windows a few years ago.

 

I was wondering, how much money might ED still be making with the first part of Lock-On Flaming Cliffs? And whether the high risk of profit loss due to pirated copies of Flaming Cliffs is still as high as it used to be. Especially, whether StarForce for the now about 7 years old Flaming Cliffs is still necessary.

 

I especially had to think of for instance Blizzard's actions who already removed the cd-check with a patch completely for for instance Diablo II and Warcraft III some time ago. So obviously they thought that it wouldn't be harmful anymore. I don't really think that better usability was the main incentive here - why should they care of that for these old games? I bet the main reason for doing so was more due to financial benfits other than the mere distribution of these game themselves. For instance: Sales for online cd-keys (which are practically impossible to fake). Or indirect advertisement for the series and/or the publisher, resulting in higher sales for the newer games. So basically seeing older game versions as a new kind of "demo", not directly a demo for the new game, but a demo for the publisher, the genre, the series, the awesomeness of the developers - to increase the desire and sales for the newer games.

 

I guess removing the StarForce protection from LOMAC FC 1 would already be a great step to easy the installation of it on Linux systems. And like someone here said earlier, LOMAC is a very specific game, it is "technical". So I think so too, quite a lot of Linux geeks that don't know of LOMAC yet would probably like it / buy it.

 

Also note, that I'm not asking anyone to release the first Lock-On parts for free, nor do I want to encourage people to pirate games online instead of buying an awesome game which a lot of people have put a lot of hard work in. That would probably be too risky, no one has ever tried that before and could very likely go totally in the opposite, wrong direction. I'm only asking for some small, controlled easing of distribution to increase viral marketing and profits for ED on the one hand and to satisfie some old customers on the other.

 

I'm not an economics person at all and I'm probably very biased because I just badly wanted to play LOMAC again a few minutes ago :). However I'm curious whether something like this sounds reasonable to the ED finance guys or whether I'm talking total bullshit :D.

 

tl;dr: Would the profits for ED increase for Lock-On products, especially newer ones, if the distribution/installation of older versions were eased, e.g. by removing StarForce from LOMAC FC 1?

 

Cheers, T_X

 

PS: And somehow the sentence "The greatest risk for an artist is not piracy. It's not being heard, not to be known instead." just came to my mind, can't remember the author of it right now.

[GGTharos]

tl;dr: Would the profits for ED increase for Lock-On products, especially newer ones, if the distribution/installation of older versions were eased, e.g. by removing StarForce from LOMAC FC 1?

 

Ubisoft owns the LOMAC title, so you may want to ask them.

 

PS: And somehow the sentence "The greatest risk for an artist is not piracy. It's not being heard, not to be known instead." just came to my mind, can't remember the author of it right now.

 

Yeah, I guess it's great to be heard after you've died of starvation. It's cool how everyone remembers Microprose fondly for example.

[EtherealN]

So I think so too, quite a lot of Linux geeks that don't know of LOMAC yet would probably like it / buy it.

 

This Linux geek already did, I just played it on the windows partition. :)

There is nothing wrong with having different OSes for different purposes. That said, I strongly doubt there would be substantial sales just from opening up for use on Linux via WINE and similar - Linux is a very very small market to begin with, and only a small portion of Linux people would be interested in a product like this. Most who would be, like me, have already purchased. (Though I specifically stopped using Linux except for mobile devices and such when Windows became good enough for productivity after Vista SP1.)

 

 

Consider the above. See the "symbian" field? That's roughly equal to the desktop share of Linux. How thriving is the gaming market on Symbian? Gaming is alive and well on Android and iOS, since those are big markets, but Symbian? No...

[Moa]

EtherealN, the interesting thing is that "Android" is in fact Linux. Whenever you hear "Android" the techie part of your brain should translate as "Java on Linux" - because that is exactly what the marketing term "Android" means. Java on Linux is the best cross-platform development language on arguably the best (most robust, cheapest on commercial scales, easy to develop for) operating system.

 

While Linux has a low desktop share, and it makes little sense to develop a client specifically for Linux, the mobile and server shares of Linux are substantial.

 

While it makes no sense to make a Linux-only client (or dedicated server, whenever that happens) it actually doesn't make much sense anymore to make Windows-only software anymore either. With the right development tools , (eg. languages, IDEs) and techniques (test driven development) you can make portable software that works on many platform that is actually not really any harder than making a single-platform client (with the right approach cross-platform can be pretty easy, I have to do this in my day job).

 

Making cross-platform software makes business sense. Everyone who makes Windows only software is now locked in to that market. That market is big, but they have chosen only to have a 'slice of the pie'. Those who have chosen cross-platform can get revenue from the 'whole pie' instead - no matter what the future holds (how many people five years ago would have predicted the rise of the phones and how much revenue people could generate from them). I've posted this article before, but for those that missed it here is a case study from the X-Plane developer where he shows the $US 3.5 million dollar financial payoff from him choosing cross-platform from the start (and ignoring all the Windows-only naysayers):

http://techhaze.com/2010/03/interview-with-x-plane-creator-austin-meyer/

 

It is too late to make the core DCS software cross-platform. However *new* projects can be designed to be cross-platform (eg. Java) from the beginning.

[pjbogamita.org]

I had to spend more than $300 on MSWindows 7 to run FC2. If I could have spent them on a linux version of FC instead, I would have avoided tens of computer crashes in the six months I have that system. Furthermore, my most powerful hardware runs linux, FC2 would feel better on it.

Edited April 12, 2012 by pjb@ogamita.org
fixed typoes

[pjbogamita.org]

iOS is unix too. Once you have a Linux version, you have 90% of a MacOSX version and 80% of a iOS one.

[Bucic]

Valve Is Working On Steam For Linux ~ Web Upd8: Ubuntu / Linux blog

[sobek]

I fail to see the significance...

 

So Valve wants a slice of multi-platformers.:huh:

 

You think that DCS with steam will then run on vine? I have my doubts.

Edited April 25, 2012 by sobek

[Bucic]

A major game developer is currently working on bringing their titles to Linux platform. We may also guess the future titles will be built as multi-platform from the ground up. I think it bears some significance ;)

[Nobody96]

I didn't read the whole thread but some post got me wondering if there is anyone here who has done some cross platform development and still thinks it is easy. First of all, I am an Linux developer and have used it almost elusively for the last 13 years. But I still use Windows for gaming. When porting a program to Linux you face a lot of challenges:

 

* Linux is far from stable. I am able to start a 5 year old game on Windows. Running a binary on Linux that 5 years old is a pretty interesting challenge (try a Loki game for example). Xorg is to be replaced by Wayland, for example. Which one would you choose when developing your application? The current API that everyone uses and that will be in use for at least 2 more years, or the next API? Btw: this is the reason why Android is simply a Java (which doesn't change so often) running on Linux.

 

* Graphic drivers for Linux are a mess. They are significantly slower than their Windows pendants. If you want to get 10 more frames, switch to Windows

 

* When you develop software, you normally avoid reinventing the wheel all the time. You therefore use a lot of libraries that provide the functionality you need. When you want to use the same code for Windows and Linux you have to port these libraries too.

 

There are a lot more reasons because of which writing an application that runs in the Windows and POSIX (Linux, MacOS, *BSD, Sun, ...) world is very hard and which make it almost impossible to port a already written program. So if anyone wants to say "its easy", please provide solutions in to at least the problems I mentioned in the very same post.

 

After speaking of problems, I also have to write about Steams decision to support the Linux environment. First of all, if you want to run your program on multiple platforms, you have to make this decision beforehand or else you have to redesign most of your code. Steam did this when they added support for MacOS so the step to add support for Linux could already use the loose coupling and was therefore significantly easier. There isn't any (real) browser out there that doesn't run on Linux. Libreoffice runs on multiple platforms too. But all these programs where designed with support for multiple platforms in mind and games typically aren't. The reason is simple:

 

There are no games on Linux because there are no gamers on Linux because there are no games on Linux.

 

When we, the Linux users who want games become a large enough market, there will be games that are developed for multiple platforms and there will be more solutions to the upper problems like, for example, some stable abstraction layers, better drivers from nVidia and ATI, cross-platform APIs and so on. But again, for that to happen we need a need for this solution, meaning that there have to be gamers on Linux and therefore we need a company like Valve to clear the way and take the initial hard and bold step.

 

so long

Mathias

Edited April 26, 2012 by Nobody96