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With this answer I guess the whole discussion gets pointless again...

 

Given what is coming with EDGE technology, it would be a massive step backwards.

 

...and actually I trust his knowledge about what they develop and what it's capable of, more than the usual beta marketing for "new products" that can do everything :music_whistling:

I've heard plenty marketing guys promise features and functions for software "being on the roadmap" or "is coming in the next release".

Let's wait for EDGE and then compare it to the competitors, or even better: to our needs. :thumbup:

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DCS just needs a a mesh with a higher resolution to get some smooth mountains and some "fresher", greener, lievelier groundtextures.

 

I guess thats not a big problem, so I´m pretty confident EDGE will get this done.

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Not a big problem..

 

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It's easy to say "the feature X will be added soon". Sometimes, adding a seemingly minor feature may mean a complete redesign.

Outerra is a toy, which have a luxury of an infinite time budget. By the time it will have all the features a commercial engine needs, along with the TOOLS for that features, its development costs will go well above the clouds.

That's ok for the product of pure love and spare-time coding.

But for a commercial engine - not so much.

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Oh, come on Dmitry, let's go for 69-bit! :D

 

HiJack, you don't seem to quite understand what the "bits" mean. What exactly do you mean by "more" 64-bit code?

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People not really into software development don't know how to say that correctly: they just want a modern full-featured graphics engine that can make a good use of the great processing power that our multi-putwhateverhere can accomplish.

 

Don't be too hard on them, they are only customers and dreamers.

 

Aren't we all?

 

I wish you a good time making this true, make your best (as always you do) and make us dream ED team. You're the best out there in the mil-sim world.


Edited by OttoPus
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As GG mentioned, there are many issues that Outerra would need to address before it could become a viable terrain engine for a quality combat flight simulation. Given what is coming with EDGE technology, it would be a massive step backwards.

Now that's what I like to hear! :)

 

if you're happy to have a semi-imaginary world - that's fine (no sarcasm or judgement intended here).

That's part of the limitation all simulators share. (And will share, for the forseeable future.) You are creating a representation of real life; compromises must be made.

 

 

Comparison of a Batumi surroundings by PeterP

Reminds me of my primary complaint with the atmosphere model in DCS World. Why is that sky such a deep blue? It's still almost purple...


Edited by aaron886
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Next year Windows 9 will come with 128 bits !!!

Anyways i have see a lot of 32 bits software who don't change and get better perf when launched in 64 bits.

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Demongornot, 32 vs 64 bit isn't mainly about "performance". It's about adressable memory size.

 

Whether a program will benefit depends entirely on what the program does and, most specifically, the amount of data it has to handle.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adress_space

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As GG mentioned, there are many issues that Outerra would need to address before it could become a viable terrain engine for a quality combat flight simulation. Given what is coming with EDGE technology, it would be a massive step backwards.

 

Ohhh, that's fightin' talk :)

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i just realized there are no lightnings in thunderstorms

AFAIK Mustang reported earlier a dark lightning issue in nightime but now (in 1.2.3.) absolutely no lightnings both in daytime/nighttime :(

 

i guess whole effects.dll is buggy ( with wingtip vapours effect too)

 

will be solved this problem with next patches ?

do you already test corrected lightnings in 1.2.4 (testers) or do we need to wait to EDGE ?

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Demongornot, 32 vs 64 bit isn't mainly about "performance". It's about adressable memory size.

 

Whether a program will benefit depends entirely on what the program does and, most specifically, the amount of data it has to handle.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adress_space

 

I know but it still have a minor difference for a lot of software between both, but maybe DCS cause of the huge map can take an advantage for more memory cause i have never tested DCS in 32 bit, i have never see any software really using my 16Go of memory, but windows itself profit of this and take more memory.

 

 

i just realized there are no lightnings in thunderstorms

AFAIK Mustang reported earlier a dark lightning issue in nightime but now (in 1.2.3.) absolutely no lightnings both in daytime/nighttime :(

 

i guess whole effects.dll is buggy ( with wingtip vapours effect too)

 

will be solved this problem with next patches ?

do you already test corrected lightnings in 1.2.4 (testers) or do we need to wait to EDGE ?

 

The problem is that the actual game structure are really disastrous, it look like a battlefield, a lot of files are missing, other are here and useless, maybe since LOMAC and no user can change it, we have no possibility (maybe except by making dll) to associate sound or visual effect to something, i was trying to create an F-15E, but no files can permit to change a lot of settings and i was totally unable to make my aircraft fully working cause i can't get a lot of things to work, no possibility to adding aircraft (only modifying existing) things like auto-trims from the F-15C are completely hiding, i can't change the RWR type even with the 3D F15C cockpit and its impossible to set sound for this aircraft.

Same for sound and effect, if ED dear give the possibility to change this by lua we will be able to add effect (like the famous wing vapor) lightning effect, adding sound and more things like this, we will be able to fix ourselves several issue, like the actually bullet impact sound missing, wingtips vortex and create our own aircraft.

FSX work well for both adding and editing at 100%, PMDG and Ariane Design proof that we can make aircraft more complex than what the game was supposed to handle, but in DCS we still be unable to do simple operation like this, its sad.

What we need its not really the fix of all this problems, its a more open possibility in the sim, and i'm sure ED Team wont be sad to see a lot of "fan made" fix for a lot of bug that they can use.

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While this certainly shows a lot of promise with pretty terrain mesh and trees, I'm afraid it is a long way from what we could ever use in a combat simulation.

1- Where are examples of real world location modeling?

2- Where are the towns and large cities?

3- Where are the multiple types of roads and road traffic?

4- Where are the rail lines and rail traffic?

5- Where are the power lines?

6- Where are the streams and large rivers?

7- Where are the oceans, lakes and coast lines?

8- Where are the ports and large airfields?

9- Where is the weather?

10- Where are the various seasons?

11- Where are the damage models for buildings?

12- Where are the star maps and correct phases of sun and moon?

13- Where are the crop fields and other man-made terrain features?

14- Where is fog modeling?

15- And so on...

 

LOL... let's say... not ready yet. :D

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i just realized there are no lightnings in thunderstorms

AFAIK Mustang reported earlier a dark lightning issue in nightime but now (in 1.2.3.) absolutely no lightnings both in daytime/nighttime :(

 

There are lightnings in thunderstorms (Version 1.2.3.)

http://abload.de/img/screen_130421_220132ewr1u.jpg

http://abload.de/img/screen_130421_222353hnsi4.jpg

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Demongornot, 32 vs 64 bit isn't mainly about "performance". It's about adressable memory size.

 

That is generally true, but the AMD64 architecture is something of a special case. They didn't just expand the address space, they also added a lot of general purpose registers to the notoriously register starved x86 architecture. Technically these are unrelated improvements that could have been added separately, but since they came together making use of the extra registers boils down to "compiling for 64 bit".

 

To benefit from those the software has to be recompiled for 64 bit, of course. Merely running the 32 bit executable under a 64 bit OS wouldn't help.

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To benefit from those the software has to be recompiled for 64 bit, of course. Merely running the 32 bit executable under a 64 bit OS wouldn't help.
Some 32-bit processes can get more user mode address space (up to 4GB) in x64 Windows if the related flag is set, without recompiling for x64, which may increase performance or stability.

32bitprocmemory.png.4256a590a44e83f557dfb3cb5f7debf9.png

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256056145_6c5e2e3cfa.jpg?v=0

this is what i talking about :doh: there are no lightnings on your screenshots ( you know electrical discharges what we can SEE as a bright zigzag line between clouds and ground) :doh:

on your images i can see only bright clouds BUT the lightning is MISSING :noexpression:

check these images: (earlier DCS-Warthog images)

http://forum.lockon.ru/showpost.php?p=1371761&postcount=65

screen120108160120.jpg

screen120108175351.jpg


Edited by NRG-Vampire

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3- Where are the multiple types of roads and road traffic?

Look at this: http://outerra.blogspot.de/2012/03/road-tool.html Maybe we get those tools oneday for DCS-World

 

4- Where are the rail lines and rail traffic?

screen_007.jpg

 

7- Where are the oceans, lakes and coast lines?

They even have 3d waves

 

15- And so on...

 

Realtime Cratures This would be a nice effect in DCS when a plane tries to land on a bombed runway

 

Low level flight, maybe interesting for DCS: Killer Bee

 

Look at these rocks its almost photorealistic.

 

Seasons :

 

iueAwUHeTHpWc.jpg

ibbB1bdTuTcZ4M.jpg

iiyyzGzlq8sYt.jpg

ixheFrlACjbDP.jpg

 

 

This engine rockxx! Fingers crossed and don't forget:

(..) Given what is coming with EDGE technology, it would be a massive step backwards (to go with Outterra).

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Nice vids, but...

Where was Outerra in 2004? 2008?

Ok with Terrain rendering. Will it fit with other calculations?

 

Make a crater + destroy a vehicle + ballistic + 2nd rendering thread on targeting TV (shkval...) + AI + large rendered cities in the backgroung and so on?

Don't get me wrong, it shows great pics (but the unrealistic road in snowy fields). Certainly better than EDGE itself (for what i saw, EDGE has good foreground view, and empty rounded background landscape). But will it run smooth with a full detailed region ?

it's 2013 now, in flight sims, nothing has really changed since Falcon 4...

+ Graphic => Arcade

- Graphic => + Avionics => Simulation

 

even comparing X-Plane to DCS, i would prefer DCS.

Even Arma Graphics is good when there's nothing to display. In large cities, it's another story.

 

So, now it's clear ED understand DCS GE is really outdated in 2013. They're making little adjustments, and i will glady pay them for that. Even to stay in Crimea (2 times if Trees are consistent ;) )

 

Compare LOMAC to BS, same map, different story.


Edited by Erforce

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Nice vids, but...

Where was Outerra in 2004? 2008?

Ok with Terrain rendering. Will it fit with other calculations?...

 

I suggest getting the Outerra demo. I think it is outdated, but worth a look. Will most likely make you wish DCS would use it lol

 

An integrated flight dynamics model library (JSBSim) provides fully configurable physics and math model defining the movement of aircraft or rocket under various natural or applied forces and moments.

 

The engine also handles complex vehicle physics and its interactions with the terrain. It makes an ideal platform for integrating the ground and aerial vehicle simulation into one solution, while also allowing to have the whole world available in it.

 

Demo can be found here


Edited by Scoggs

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Why people want a GRAPHIC engine make calculation for flight model or avionic ? absolutely no sens.

Its definitely NOT the graphic engine who provide things light flight model, avionic, AI and other things like this, for object collision and basic physic yes maybe and only a bit of it, but the graphic engine have NOTHING to do with aircraft comportment, exactly like Cry Engine or any other big graphic engine can do so various type of game that they can be in a software with a totally opposite way to work.

We can basically implemented a flight sim with EVERY graphic engine of the world, the only problem will be the visible distance and for some of them not able to handle big map the size of the map itself cause cause issue, but actual graphic engine are today capable to do way more than what DCS or even EDGE can do, CryEngine for example don't care about the map size and he can rendering a map with a really huge display distance even for the moment where no game/software that it was use for need it, he still be able to do it, and with a beautiful graphic engine like this, make optimization for show "far away" render with a COMPLETELY simplified model who take a minor computing percentage.

I don't know what Outerra is capable to do, but after see this :

i'm sure it can handle all the Georgia with all city, cause in this video we clearly see COMPLEXES geometry huge construction with a lot of polygons, and don't lie yourself, building or house in DCS are something like 5 polygons, its a box with a texture nothing else, and unlike DCS Outerra don't need to cheat by using a false scale effect, put the camera in front of a building in DCS and look up, if you told me that you REALLY have the impression to look at a really huge building with several floors, you are lying or you have a problems with your eyes or your brain, in this video we can clearly see HUGE building and even without full screen video it look like a giant building and feet like we are a human size next to this.

About all screenshot of Nevada the false size effect is exactly the same, it mean for me that EDGE was not more powerful than Outerra (who was not yet finish).

The number of polygons from "futurist building" in the video link i have send is probably over all the polygon of all the city of DCS.

 

For answer point per point to what GGTharos say :

1 no one need accurate reproduction of the real world location, i'm sure almost no one who flying in DCS will flying exactly at the same way if rather than the Georgia it was a totally fictional map, and for a lot of things like national security it can cause problem to do a perfect reproduction and it will probably prevent the sim to using a accurate reproduction for a global map, and anyways the terrain itself of Outerra is more accurate than the DCS one (i only talk about the ground, nothing else, don't forget that it was a real time autogenerated terrain, don't expect miracle compare to hand made one).

 

2 Town and large city can be reproduced, and with the autogeneration capability we can even expect an SDK who provide autogeneration of city without need to hand made it, generate based on divert maps.

 

3 Type of road...CTR perfectly answer it, and traffic who care ? Outerra can handle it anyways but a lot of people for FPS saving disabled this in DCS and even when it is activate it have almost no influence on the flight except on free flight when someone want to shoot civil cars, for the moment Outerra work only as graphic engine demonstrator and not as a finish software, AI can be added, and with AI civil road and AIR traffic can be generated, cause if road traffic is a valid point to defend DCS, the missing air traffic is also a big point for discredit it, cause in an AIRCRAFT sim, air traffic was way more important than road traffic.

 

4 Rail line like road can be important for navigation (even if no one have ever do a real VRF flight in DCS) and CTR also answer.

 

5 Power lines are also another simple object that can be implemented and based on the same way to see Outerra, DCS have also a lot of things who are missing.

 

6,7 Water are perfectly handle by Outerra and unlike DCS the water look nice, in DCS we CAN'T have any idea of the altitude over the water that we are, disable the info bar, go in the middle of the sea far from coast and don't look at the shadow, try to flight closer as possible of the water without using the GPWS sound and without look at the wave caused by the low altitude flight (wave who eat more FPS than a whole city or airport) and we can correctly modeling a lot of things, including streams and large rivers (and maybe way more) and other oceans (DCS don't have cause only the Black Sea was present)

 

8 For both port and large airfield they can be also modeling, Outerra proof that it can work with a high number of polygons and texture, way over what DCS try to do.

 

9 The weather is here :

Weather in game is composed by two things, visual effect of the weather (fog, cloud, rain, snow and other things) and effect in object, its only a simple variable, and when we think about the fact that weather and by extension, wind are important on aircraft sim, we can ask the same thing in DCS regarding the turbulence totally false and the turbulence/wind/vortex created by aircraft, the R77 missile is enough important in size and speed to make a small aircraft and helicopters to crash, its not something that we can just forget to implement and say : no problem it is realistic without it. Mainly when it real life it cause a lot of crash and when in a COMBAT aircraft sim we have a lot of situation where in real life the presence of turbulance and other effect can really change things, like pass supersonic really close to an helicopter with a 13m large and almost 20m long aircraft (F15c) who was way more bigger than a R77 missile.

 

10 Various season CTR already show it, and except the visual effect the only things that really affect the sim is the temperature who still a variable, and who can be false if user set winter temperature in summer mission, ok it also affect the hours for the day and night cycle but every game who handle day and night in cycle can handle a scripted sun time or the course of the light source, don't forget that Outerra handle the whole globe.

 

11 Damage of building, units and other things, why it can't be implemented ? a lot of game come with no damageable scenery and after some patch make it totally destructible, look at the PhysiX map of Unreal Tournament 3 for example, and what is a damage and destruction except a detection of "damage point" (like health and move power in MMORPG) an animation of collapsing and a simple disabled it box/visual presence and a damage texture on the ground ?

 

12 Who have already using a single time (except maybe for check if it was really rendered correctly) using moon, sun and/or star to navigate, DCS with a totally false moon/sun cycle and totally fictional star map will change absolutely nothing for 99.9% of user. Don't forget that Outerra use a 3D realistic scale reproduction of the earth, it mean we can coding the position of the sun to be 100% accurate depending of the date/hours, and maybe more accurate than DCS even if the difference can't be see by user, for the moon its the same things and honestly i don't imagine any possibility who can prevent Outerra to using real star map except maybe if someone who take if for make a simulator was too lazy to recreate it.

 

13 its funny cause DCS miss a LOT of man-made object that anyways actual graphic engine can't even dream to rendering, Outerra can, and with actual graphic and size effect its useless to handle it in DCS, and the whole texture of the whole terrain in DCS was totally false, the crop fields don't look like real one and a lot of time i look at the ground and just say : what i'm supposed to look right now, it look like nothing i know.

And Outerra using a 3D grass (way better than the funny DCS one), and over a certain distance he using texture only, Outerra use autogenerate terrain, and in a simple way, it don't use data from roadmap, city and other things like this, but if it was hand made or autogenerated for a final use (i will back to this) we can see a lot of ground texture various and beautiful (cause way higher resolution than DCS).

 

14 its here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULyJmHgQBz4

 

The point is : Outerra don't cheat by using a false size effect for saving computing power, it can handle the whole earth in a real size, it handle beautiful graphic with complex ground geometry and high resolution texture, it can handle map deformation, it can handle a lot of polygons and HD texture without having performance issue, and so on...

 

And Outerra like i said is actually based in real time terrain generation based on real world data, it provide fast but realistic (over DCS) terrain data, a lot of things are missing but some SDK can also be using for autogenerate city, road, rail lines and a lot of other things based on a lot of data for create a definitive map or use this to always autogenerate it, and it was always the same.

So for me, without REAL proof, Outerra its one of the various example that DCS and every flight sim like MFS, X Plane and other are totally under optimized and using a really bad graphic engine.

 

Even for the game structure itself, no multicore support yet, its another thread i know but for example, i have watch the last video of the game X Rebirth who still in development, the team was not bigger than ED team, but they actually have a working system who can handle multicore, the game will automatically create process based on the number of CPU core, if we have a 12 core CPU, it will create 12 thread (but it still magically communicate...).

Anyways its nice to defending the sim like it actually is, but one day we have to wake up if we want to make progress and rather than just put hands your hears and say : "BLABLABLA the sim perfectly work and no other software do better" its maybe time to realize that the sim have a LOT of problems and a lot can be solved and admit that the graphic engine are actually bad and EDGE won't be a revolution, just another aircraft sim graphic engine where other graphic engine can do way better including for rendering distance, don't forget, we don't care how the game process, the important is what we see on the screen, some graphic engine can use interactive and dynamic background based on several 3D data who can for almost no computing power show perfectly mountains, city and other point of scenery, even with modification like smoke due to crash or anything else and still using (cause of this huge computing power saved) a really high resolution and complexity ground rendering, like combining both short range of Arma 3 and medium/long range of Aerofly Pro FS, and everyone who i talk about this completely agree, except here.

I hope one day CryEngine or other giant graphic engine will be using for create a flight sim.

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Hardware used for DCS : Pro, Saitek pro flight rudder, Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog, Oculus Rift.

Own : A-10C, Black Shark (BS1 to BS2), P-51D, FC3, UH-1H, Combined Arms, Mi-8MTV2, AV-8B, M-2000C, F/A-18C, Hawk T.1A

Want : F-14 Tomcat, Yak-52, AJS-37, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, F-5E, MiG-21Bis, F-86F, MAC, F-16C, F-15E.

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