Question about flame-out - due to empty tanks

[Depede]

I love to fly the Russian birds, primarily the MiG-29. In some of my quests to be the highest/fastest/stupidest bird (yeah, I'm 34 but still playing like a kid), I deliberately run out of fuel in 30.000 ft in the MiG. Then of course the engine is flaming out and I try to find the nearest airport and glide to a landing - it's hard but not impossible.

 

I'm currently reading "Rolling Thunder" by Mark Berent, and it starts with an F100D Super Sabre pilot doing the same thing (during the Vietnam war in 1965) - flameout in 6.000 ft and gliding in. The book describes how he has to point the nose downwards and do a fast decent to keep the turbine fans turning to keep power on both the avionics and the hydraulic system - so he can steer the plane and extend the gear.

 

But that was in 1965...

 

Question: When I experience flameouts - there's still power on the plane - I can use avionics/gear/flaps and have complete control - all the way down. Is that realistic behaviour of the RL-Lomac-planes? If not - it could be a fun aspect to implement in a later version (Lomac 2.0)

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

also have you ever noticed that when you run out of fuel, you can still hear the engines at idle ?

[SuperKungFu]

One time I tried this really stupid thing where I wanted to land but without any thrust just to see if I could make it. I turned off the engine but I forgot that also turns off the avionics/gear/flaps. Luckily my plane was already lined up and gears down, so my plane actually made it on the runway without any damage. Damn I'm such a good pilot. So if you want that experience to fly without control since u don’t have any thrust, then I guess turn off your engines when you run out of fuel. ;)

[golfsierra2]

 

Question: When I experience flameouts - there's still power on the plane - I can use avionics/gear/flaps and have complete control - all the way down. Is that realistic behaviour of the RL-Lomac-planes? If not - it could be a fun aspect to implement in a later version (Lomac 2.0)

 

It is the unrealistic behavior of LO-planes.

In real, some aircraft already can be in severe trouble when only one of two engines or the connected power control unit (PCU) or / and generator fails.

 

Most likely, for the electrical side, the second generator will feed all the vital instruments and actuators, however it is a case for calling mayday.

 

In bad cases, you will loose the PCU on the side where the engine died, and maybe even the other generator will not be connected to the electrical distribution system anymore, so you will loose some of your instruments or other equipment such as nose wheel steering (NWS- requires approach end cable), pitot heaters (you'll loose your speed indicator due to icing) or your flaps/slats/ airbrakes, or your primary/secondary nav system, or your radio or your IFF or your cockpit lights or or or, just an example.

 

If you loose both engines and you are below 10.000 ft - pull the handle and bail out - that is standard emergency procedure. Too low for trying a restart - don't try to be a hero !

 

If you are high enough or you can't bail out for whatever reason (area occupied by enemy) most modern jets have an EPU (emergency power unit) like a battery pack or a Ramjet-generator, providing limited electricity and hydraulic power so the aircraft might be controllable for a limited time.

 

I agree, it should be possible to couple engine flame out with hydraulic failure for example...

[192nd_Erdem]

Doesn't new fighters have something like "emergency generator"?I remember from the trainings from Falcon4 AF that there was a little turbine motor with it's own fuel to feed main systems in a flameout or another situation(for like 15 mins).

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

i dunno bout, fighters, but i do know that airliners got a fan like thing that pops out if engines lose power so it will spin and generate electricty for essential items in the cockpit, also speaking about power units, would the APU be the same thing ? auxillary power unit, for when engines die, would that be sufficient to power the cockpit systems for a set period of time.....

[Guest Cali]

Doesn't new fighters have something like "emergency generator"?I remember from the trainings from Falcon4 AF that there was a little turbine motor with it's own fuel to feed main systems in a flameout or another situation(for like 15 mins).

 

The emergency generator your talking about is called the EPU emergency power unit on the F-16. It has enough fuel to run the engine for about 15 minutes then it runs out. In the amount of time you can get to a safe place and bail out.

 

EVIL-SCOTSMAN The APU is on the A-10 they use it when they first start the jet. After the engines kick in they turn it off. I don't know if or what the other aircraft use since I have only worked on the F-16 and A-10 so far.

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

I have only worked on the F-16 and A-10 so far.

 

NICE, i never knew that, i maybe should look at sigs more often :rolleyes: , dude i bet that was/is a magic job, even if you didnt/dont get to fly em, just being around them and gettin payed for it would be the ultimate magic job, big Salute to ya for keeping those things in the air ;)

 

also thanks for the reply on the APU, i always thought it was incase of failure/damage and it would power the cockpit/hud for a limited period.....

have one of me :icon_jook

[Force_Feedback]

I know that Airbus A321 uses the APU on takeoffs and landings, to provide emergency power on those critical phases of the flight.

[KuostA]

All Airliners already have an onboard APU in the tail, and use them on the ground to power the avionics, lights, and allow the engines to be started. Once they engines are online and the plane has push backed, the APU is turned off, and the plane relies soley off of its engines. Some smaller or older airliners are hooked up to power unit vehicles on the ground instead.

 

In case of an emergency and both engines fail, there is a small fan that deploys under the fuselage, which offers a limited supply of power.

[Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN]

In case of an emergency and both engines fail, there is a small fan that deploys under the fuselage, which offers a limited supply of power.

 

 

Ya i mentioned that earlier, i seen it on some programme that supposdly it opens at 10k and not before, kinda too low for that to be opening especially if they lost power at cruising alt :o

[mikoyan]

the f-4 has a generator or dynamic presure turbine , it generate energy by the accion of the wind , but only for the most important systems of the airplane like hydraulics. like the passenger airplanes , they also have APU.

[Weta43]

I think I remember running out of gas about 20km from home in the SU25T & gliding in to land. From memory I left putting the gear & flaps down till the last minute & got the wheels down, but had no hydraulic pressure left & the flaps wouldn't deploy ...

[Dice]

The A-10s APU can provide emerg. power to the aircraft but, to provide hydro. power a handle inside the airframe must be moved so this can't be done in-flight. If you are out of gas for the engines...you are out of gas for the APU also.

 

The "little turbine motor" you speak of was call a RAT (Ram Air Turbin), we had them on some models of the F-4 Phantom but, no modern aircraft in the USAF inventory today have them as far as I know....more trouble than they were worth.

[Depede]

To recap:

 

It is the unrealistic behavior of LO-planes.

In real, some aircraft already can be in severe trouble when only one of two engines or the connected power control unit (PCU) or / and generator fails.

 

Most likely, for the electrical side, the second generator will feed all the vital instruments and actuators, however it is a case for calling mayday.

 

I agree, it should be possible to couple engine flame out with hydraulic failure for example...

 

Thanx, golfsierra2 and others helpful souls.

 

Since we hadn't heard otherwise, we can assume that flame-out-"handling" isn't completely correct in LOMAC-planes. Of course not everything has to be realistic, but if this were possible to implement in later versions of LOMAC, I would for one really appreciate it :)

[Force_Feedback]

Thanx, golfsierra2 and others helpful souls.

 

Since we hadn't heard otherwise, we can assume that flame-out-"handling" isn't completely correct in LOMAC-planes. Of course not everything has to be realistic, but if this were possible to implement in later versions of LOMAC, I would for one really appreciate it :)

 

the non-afm planes are supergliders in lomac, becasue they don't get the additional drag when the engines stop.

[Tracker]

I have landed deadstick numerous times in both 1.02 and 1.1 in the F15, Mig29S, Su-27 and Su-33. They all have similar characteristic effects. A) Turbines turn providing an 'Idle' sound and generator B) Gear is still operational C) Steering fails below minimum speed. So...be sure you are lined up with the centerline on TD or you will most likely find yourself needing a tow truck. D) Don't expect hydraulics (like airbrakes) to work.

Also keep in mind that avionics run on batteries that are recharged by the Generators. And I believe some of the equipment has backup electrical motors (Like Gear Down).

 

Be sure and set your Glide Speed. I have found that 200Mph in the F-15 works out very well. 350Kph in the Russians seems good, but your weight plays an important role. So...jettison what you can.

 

Rule of thumb: Listen to Betty and check your gauges. Fuel 800 is an indicator to throttle back to 90% and find that Airbase. Keep your Altitude as long as you can and remember, the higher you are the more fuel effecient (provided you don't go past the oxygen layer ;) )

 

Hope this helps ;)

[Dice]

 

Also keep in mind that avionics run on batteries that are recharged by the Generators. And I believe some of the equipment has backup electrical motors (Like Gear Down).

 

 

No US aircraft (to my knowledge) have avionics "which run on batteries and are recharged by the generators". Also no "backup electrical motors".

[GGTharos]

the non-afm planes are supergliders in lomac, becasue they don't get the additional drag when the engines stop.

 

 

I dunno, I hear the F-15 does approximately 1nm/1000' when gliding. Looks relatively accurate - if you mean that maintaining precice speed in your descent should be important, then I agree with you but otherwise ... no.