BS2 trim and FFB2 broken

[Nate--IRL--]

bumpybump?

 

Why?

 

Nate

[keithb]

It seems to be even worse for me - releasing trim kicks the nose up AND rolls firmly right.

Pretty unflyable. :-(

MS FFB2, Checked the joystick works fine in BS1 and A-10C

Tried enabling / disabling all the autopilot buttons, the waypoint, the trim centring option...

Is there something else I've forgotten thats on by default?

Cheers

Keith

[astrospud]

This old debate again .... :)

 

The trim is 2 systems working together.

 

1 is for holding the stick position and

2 is setting the 20% autopilot control authority for holding pitch, bank and heading positions, this control authority is NOT transferred to the stick position.

 

You cannot tell the amount of control input the autopilot is using. So when the trim button is pressed, the autopilots 20% authority disappears instantly -- > usually manifesting in a pitch up after accelerating slightly after trim was set.

 

If you try to replicate this with the Flight director on, the pitch up should not appear at all.

 

Nate

 

I think what folks here are saying is that what is mentioned above is inverse to what we are experiencing.

 

My experience in BS1 is that if I don't press trimmer when moving the cyclic and AP channels are ON, the ship is sensitive to my inputs- and that's with default axis curve.

When trimmer is pressed, ship is comparatively stable, alluding to 20% AP authority being applied when trimmer is pressed. And I don't generally fly with Flight Director on.

Not true to real life, but it is there in my experience.

 

BS2 is the opposite, or at least it feels that way.

 

There is something distinctly different in the control regimes between the 2 releases of Blackshark and I have read posts elsewhere that agree.

 

I've never had to adjust the axis curves in BS1, learning how far I can move the cyclic without over cooking it, but now it's like I'm learning it again.

 

Surely, this warrants some investigation.

[PeterP]

astrospud,

we already gone trough this - it is acknowledged as a bug and Nate reported it to the devs.

 

start reading at post #55 again to get the whole picture.

 

Up to now FFB users are advised to use the FD while trimming.

 

edit:

anyway a good post! - but a little late.. ;)

Edited November 15, 2011 by PeterP

[astrospud]

rgr - apologies, to all :)

[JFSebastian]

Hi All,

 

I have similar trimming & controller problems with BS2, using nonFFB x52pro

(or my old MS Sidewinder Pro, the same issues), OS is Windows 7 64bit.

 

I would just like to point out that this issue is valid for the nonFFB controllers also.

 

BR

 

JFS

[Nate--IRL--]

Which issue is that? Please be precise.

 

Nate

[Jerry]

Which issue is that? Please be precise.

 

Nate

Probably the same problem I am having, the moment I pitch with trim on x52pro, it dives down for being very sensitive, I set deadzone/curve/usercurve/axis and still same response

[Nate--IRL--]

Probably the same problem I am having, the moment I pitch with trim on x52pro, it dives down for being very sensitive, I set deadzone/curve/usercurve/axis and still same response

 

That is far too little for me to get useful information from, at least post a screenshot of your curves for x and Y axis. Even better would be a short track too.

 

Nate

[71st_Mastiff]

Same problem here. While trimming is working perfect in BS 1.02 in BS2 isn't. Everytime I hit and release the trimm the nose rises which is very bothering and frustrating. Imposible to be accurate on fligth.

Weird becuse I use the same profile/settings on both versions with my Logitech G940. (Of course I use FFB that's why I bought a FFB joystick)

I hope it will be fixed soon.

 

N

 

same issues with my x52 and ST290 pro set up, I trim the helli lurches forward 35 degrees nose down pitch and when released its 180 nose pitch up.

 

I believe that the Helli is acting like it has no weight to it.

and only happens when its windy.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Mastiff

[Nate--IRL--]

We can't fix what we can't see, please please provide a short track with the CTRL-Enter indicator on so we can see it.

 

Nate

[keithb]

Cant do a track, but have done some testing.

With reference to the diagram below of the control indicator, where X is the centre

 

.........B

.........|

.........|

A-----X------C

.........|

.........|

.........D

 

On startup control indicator is at X when no force applied to joystick and I can then fly normally, but with a lot of force.

If I push Trim and move the indicator to A (leftbank) on release the stick jumps to B and stays there unless I apply a counter force.

If I push Trim and move the indicator to B (nose down) on release the stick jumps to C and stays there unless I apply a counter force.

If I push Trim and move the indicator to C (rightbank) on release the stick jumps to D and stays there unless I apply a counter force.

If I push Trim and move the indicator to D (nose up) on release the stick jumps to A and stays there unless I apply a counter force.

 

This all happens whether or not I have any or all of the AP/FD functions on and whether or not 'CPT ' is ticked.

 

I'm pretty sure that the code that programs the force into the stick on trim release is applying it 90 degrees out

 

If I trim back to centre then all is relatively well again, just have to force the controls in the required direction again.

 

Cheers

Keith

[71st_Mastiff]

Cant do a track, but have done some testing.

With reference to the diagram below of the control indicator, where X is the centre

 

.........B

.........|

.........|

A-----X------C

.........|

.........|

.........D

 

On startup control indicator is at X when no force applied to joystick and I can then fly normally, but with a lot of force.

If I push Trim and move the indicator to A (leftbank) on release the stick jumps to B and stays there unless I apply a counter force.

If I push Trim and move the indicator to B (nose down) on release the stick jumps to C and stays there unless I apply a counter force.

If I push Trim and move the indicator to C (rightbank) on release the stick jumps to D and stays there unless I apply a counter force.

If I push Trim and move the indicator to D (nose up) on release the stick jumps to A and stays there unless I apply a counter force.

 

This all happens whether or not I have any or all of the AP/FD functions on and whether or not 'CPT ' is ticked.

 

I'm pretty sure that the code that programs the force into the stick on trim release is applying it 90 degrees out

 

If I trim back to centre then all is relatively well again, just have to force the controls in the required direction again.

 

Cheers

Keith

this is exactly what is occurring in MP. Not so often in SP.

 

:joystick:

[Nate--IRL--]

Cant do a track, but have done some testing.

 

Please describe hardware, system specs etc.

 

I'll guess Microsoft FFB2?

 

this is exactly what is occurring in MP. Not so often in SP.

 

:joystick:

 

You are getting Force Feedback on an X-52 pro?

 

Nate

Edited November 16, 2011 by Nate--IRL--

[71st_Mastiff]

mines X52 with the ST290 pro saitek

[keithb]

Sorry, yes, FFB2.

Posted that previously but should have repeated

Only done SP, but always occurs.

Have had BS1 since 1st russian release, never a problem.

Used the FFB2 in BS1, A-10C, FF5 and FSX last night without a problem.

Cheers

Keith

Win XP

4GB

E8400

GTX 460

Edited November 16, 2011 by keithb

[Mirabilis]

Forcefeedback - MS FF2 stick issue?

 

Hi,

 

This may not be relevant given that the force feedback issue does not occur in Black Shark 1, but it might help explain problems people are having with the Microsoft Force Feedback 2 stick.

 

The Microsoft Force Feeback 2 stick I'm using has exactly the same problem as mentioned by others. It's alleviated a little, but not fixed, by turning off force feedback in the options. Also, there is an option to tweak force feedback settings in the control options and it might help to turn down force feedback trim a little there.

 

Here is where I think part of the problem may lie: the stick is designed not to apply any forces until it is held. If you let go of the stick (for example to push some buttons with your mouse) the stick ceases to centre itself and can roll out of its original position. Bizarrely, this is considered a 'feature' of the stick.

 

So for example, if I hold the stick in position while hovering then apply the auto hover mode it should hold the hover. However, if I let go of the stick to start looking for targets with the keyboard the stick ceases to hold position as soon as I let go of it and physically starts to move out of position. It only returns to its central position if I hold it again. As it goes out of position it will still apply a force, so if it tips forward it will push the helo forward etc. As the autopilot only has 20% authority a lolling stick is a real problem.

 

This does not explain the radical uncommanded input seen in the game when hitting trim in forward flight. But it might explain some problems people are experiencing with force feedback using the Microsoft FF2 stick. It might be worth investigating.

 

To be honest, the best stick to use for this particular game is a dedicated non-force feedback aircraft stick. I don't have one of those so I'm stuck with the Microsoft jobby. Its making auto hover a nightmare. It might even be affecting the trim.

 

If anyone else uses this stick have they had the same sort of trouble in autohover?

 

Could this be what's affecting the trim?

 

By the way, when pressing CTRL+enter I notice my stick is not perfectly centred. Its central position is slightly low on the Y axis. I have calibrated it in Windows 7. Is there a way to calibrate it in the game itself?

Edited November 16, 2011 by Mirabilis
added an adendum

[PeterP]

Hi - I assume you didn't read the whole thread - if you would - you would know that this is a new bug in BS2 and it is already acknowledged.

 

Simply put a little piece of tape on the small hole down the shaft to cover the photo-diode. And your stick will hold position if you let it go.

 

The right way to establish the Hold-Hover mode:

First establish a stable hover without lateral movement and trim. - Than apply the "Hold-Hover" button.

 

Hold-hover is not equally "auto-hover"

 

If you have still a lateral movement when you switched on the "hover-hold" you will end up constantly fighting the AP.

 

IMHO - the MS-FFB2 is the best stick to simulate a helicopter with Force-trim. If you have a different opinion it's OK - but I think that you using the stick in a wrong way.

Keep in mind that you never should use some curves or dead-zone with the MS-FFB2 together with DCS- or you will break the right function of the FFB.

The only thing you have to change is "Swap axis" in the "FF tune" of the controllers options of DCS.

 

Use the Clear Calibration tool to erase the saved calibration from your windows registry: corrupt calibration? crazy joystick response? Use this tools Fix it:

Edited November 16, 2011 by PeterP

[Nate--IRL--]

Sorry, yes, FFB2.

Posted that previously but should have repeated

Only done SP, but always occurs.

Have had BS1 since 1st russian release, never a problem.

Used the FFB2 in BS1, A-10C, FF5 and FSX last night without a problem.

Cheers

Keith

Win XP

4GB

E8400

GTX 460

 

I don't own a FFB2 but I'm fairly certain there is an option somewhere in DCS specifically for the problem you describe - Swap Axix, or something like that.

 

Nate

[Mirabilis]

Hi - I assume you didn't read the whole thread - if you would - you would know that this is a new bug in BS2 and it is already acknowledged.

 

Simply put a little piece of tape on the small hole down the shaft to cover the photo-diode. And your stick will hold position if you let it go.

 

The right way to establish the Hold-Hover mode:

First establish a stable hover without lateral movement and trim. - Than apply the "Hold-Hover" button.

 

Hold-hover is not equally "auto-hover"

 

If you have still a lateral movement when you switched on the "hover-hold" you will end up constantly fighting the AP.

 

IMHO - the MS-FFB2 is the best stick to simulate a helicopter with Force-trim. If you have a different opinion it's OK - but I think that you using the stick in a wrong way.

Keep in mind that you never should use some curves or dead-zone with the MS-FFB2 together with DCS- or you will break the right function of the FFB.

The only thing you have to change is "Swap axis" in the "FF tune" of the controllers options of DCS.

 

Use the Clear Calibration tool to erase the saved calibration from your windows registry: corrupt calibration? crazy joystick response? Use this tools Fix it:

 

 

Thanks for the response.

 

Yes, I had read the whole thread, and understand the bug is acknowledged. I'm just trying to help find the source of the bug. I was simply wondering if, when programming the code, the team knew that an issue existed with MS FF2 joysticks. It's the kind of thing you might not know if you don't own an example of this particular stick. Sometimes programmers need that kind of feedback to narrow in on a particular issue. In this case it seems unlikely because there was no problem with BS1, but you never know.

 

The information about putting a piece of tape on the hole was useful. I'll give that a try. The other information was good, too. I'll give that all a go.

 

If the MS FF2 is the best Force Feedback stick for this simulation then thats pretty disappointing. The whole configuration of the stick to my mind is awkward. While I could perhaps hone my technique a little better, the overly springy yaw motion lacks precision for me. But if you like it, fine.

[keithb]

From the Wiki (and as PeterP points out)

Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 has reversed axis.

Options > Controls > FF tune > Swap Axes

Not 100% convinced but will try it tonight, if it works will be time for 'embarrassed smiley'

Cheers

Keith

[PeterP]

the overly springy yaw motion lacks precision for me. But if you like it, fine.

To trim smoothly - without jumpiness in the stick response:

 

Before making a bigger direction changes: hold down trim - complete the manoeuvre - than release trim.

 

or

 

use smaller steps - means "blink" the trimmer often while changing direction.

 

Both methods represent RL procedures.

If a RL pilot wouldn't do it this way -he would also have to fight the sudden change in the spring-load of the cyclic.

And have the same difficulties you describe and loose precision.

 

Here is a video - and listen to the click:

Simulator session of a Mi-171

 

This will ensure that you don't fight the AP while changing direction (Holding down the trim will also decouple the AP channels similar like in Flight-Director mode) and you will have not to move your hand against a constant force. - While holding trim the stick will get loose and you can move the stick freely around as smooth like butter.

 

Conclusion:

The MS-FFB2 is the most realistic joystick that the "average-Joe" could get easily if he wants the most realistic experience to fly a Force-trim equipped helicopter.

Also keep in mind that FD-Channel has to be switched on constantly in BS2 to avoid the "pitch-up"bug.

 

Edit:

I tried to do the same with X52 - and to make it short :

It's impossible.

 

With a none FFB stick you always have to count in the reaction the helicopter will make after you have trimmed, this will make a intuitive control very hard - but you can get used to it - until you experienced how it is with FFB.

-and it is almost impossible for me to use a normal stick with BS again without the feeling that I lost something essential.

Edited November 16, 2011 by PeterP

[average_pilot]

... the overly springy yaw motion lacks precision for me. But if you like it, fine.

For The Galaxy's sake, don't use a joystick to control the yaw axis. Buy yourself some rudder pedals.

 

And the tape over the "hand sensor" of the MSFFB2 is standard procedure right after taking it out of the box. Place it there and leave it for the rest of its life.

 

Believe or not, it's the best FFB joystick. So enjoy it.

 

... While holding trim the stick will get loose and you can move the stick freely around as smooth like butter.

...

That's the part I still refuse to believe that is accurated and I've always assumed that the FFB "logic" was left as work in progress once ED got the basic behaviour and never came back there to finish it. As an example, look at that "vibrations" option that is non functional.
Edited November 16, 2011 by average_pilot

[PeterP]

For The Galaxy's sake, don't use a joystick to control the yaw axis. Buy yourself some rudder pedals.

 

I had the strange feeling I forgot to mention something as I hit the "submit reply" button... I should have start with this point as I was writing my posting.

Thanks for pointing that out!

And BTW - try this for more comfort/realism: How to unchain the rudder from trim

 

That's the part I still refuse to believe that is accurate and I've always assumed that the FFB "logic" was left as work in progress once ED got the basic behaviour and never came back there to finish it. As an example, look at that "vibrations" option that is non functional.

 

Be assured it is exactly like this - I have a friend that studied aerospace engineering and I talked once to a Helicopter-pilot at the ILA in Berlin -and they both assured me that this is exactly like force-trim works.

-why should it work different?

 

About the missing "vibrations" on the FFB:

When the cyclic is linked to the rotor by hydraulics - there is a damping and you would have no (or much less) vibration on the stick as on your airframe .

When you want vibration - use a butt kicker (I do- and I will never fly without..- without everything feels so sterile... )

You feel the vibration primary with your body/butt and not only with your hand.

 

And this could be also very counter-acting when making small adjustments to the cyclic while the amplitude of the shaking is grater than your adjustment.

 

So if you want to have a vibrating stick you should link a butt-kicker (bass-shaker) to a platform on which your chair and the stick is mounted.

 

So I think -and there are many others that do think the same- (there are many postings on the same subject already) that ED made a great job with the FFB.

 

(ehm ..: until the BS2 upgrade)

Edited November 16, 2011 by PeterP

[keithb]

Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 has reversed axis.

Options > Controls > FF tune > Swap Axes

Yep, that was it, all is now fine and dandy!

Cheers

Keith