BS2 trim and FFB2 broken

[sylkhan]

With BS1 and DCSWH my FFB2 works perfectly but in BS2 it's broken.

I use always the same settings, no deadzone, no curvature, old trimming system.

In BS2 when i release the trim button my nose pitch up 15°, very strange, first time i have this pb with DCS serie.

Unable to Fly. Very frustrating :)

[cichlidfan]

Turn off FFB in the sims options.

[sylkhan]

Turn off FFB in the sims options.

 

?????

I don't want to turn off FFB !

 

FFB is way better

[keithb]

Is this the same for all MS Sidewinder FFB2 users?

That was the best joystick for BS - surely they wont have broken it...

Means no purchase for me if so.

Cheers

Keith

[Nobody96]

Its the same with the g940, see: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=80934

[sonic]

i don't know about ffb but trimming feels different to me...

[Nate--IRL--]

i don't know about ffb but trimming feels different to me...

 

Are your response curves the same?

 

Nate

[GCMallet]

I also get the pitch up upon releasing the trim button on my MS FFB2 when running BS2. The joystick trims as it should, i.e. stays in place both physically as well as the virtual one but the shark behaves as if i reset trim when running a non-FFB joystick. Trim is correctly mapped. Currently running without FFB until a workaround can be identified.

[Nate--IRL--]

Mallet;1320497']I also get the pitch up upon releasing the trim button on my MS FFB2 when running BS2. The joystick trims as it should' date=' i.e. stays in place both physically as well as the virtual one but the shark behaves as if i reset trim when running a non-FFB joystick. Trim is correctly mapped. Currently running without FFB until a workaround can be identified.[/quote']

 

This old debate again .... :)

 

The trim is 2 systems working together.

 

1 is for holding the stick position and

2 is setting the 20% autopilot control authority for holding pitch, bank and heading positions, this control authority is NOT transferred to the stick position.

 

You cannot tell the amount of control input the autopilot is using. So when the trim button is pressed, the autopilots 20% authority disappears instantly -- > usually manifesting in a pitch up after accelerating slightly after trim was set.

 

If you try to replicate this with the Flight director on, the pitch up should not appear at all.

 

Nate

[Mirtma]

I have problems with trim to. I don't have FFB. With 3 AP on, I stabilize BS, press trim and BS jumps (almost like when pressing reset trim button). With trying, reading old notes i found suggestion to fly with flight director on. And this works OK.

 

edit:

:D I was a bit late. But Nate, now I understand. Just as I've said.

Edited November 4, 2011 by Mirtma
Saw reply from Nate

[Nate--IRL--]

I have problems with trim to. I don't have FFB. With 3 AP on, I stabilize BS, press trim and BS jumps (almost like when pressing reset trim button). With trying, reading old notes i found suggestion to fly with flight director on. And this works OK.

 

BTW the solution to the "Jump" is to trim more often as your airspeed changes, every 1-2 seconds, until your speed stabilises. Required in the real Ka-50 too I believe.

 

Nate

[PeterP]

Sorry Nate - but this time there is a violent pitch up that has nothing to do with the autopilot control authority.

 

And if yes - its done not in a nice way...

 

It happens also in level flight when only hitting the trim button without to move the stick at all.

 

The trim behaviour has changed from BS1 to BS2 - and it feels just bad.

 

MS FFB2 here.

 

 

Edit:

BTW the solution to the "Jump" is to trim more often as your airspeed changes, every 1-2 seconds, until your speed stabilises. Required in the real Ka-50 too I believe.

 

Nate

When I would do this - what I have done anyway in BS1 - I will have a "pitch up " every time I trim .

Now I hardly want to use the trim any-more...

Edited November 4, 2011 by PeterP

[Nate--IRL--]

Hmm ok I'll take a look, could you record a track, if you get time? Please turn on the Control indicator too.

 

Try Trimming in a hover showing the effect. Stabilising at 100, 200km/hr too. and also with the Flight Director on and off.

 

Nate

[PeterP]

Sure!

I will have guests in the next 20min for this evening/night- so please don't expect a track from me the next 12houers.

[jib]

Yes what Nate said seems to explain what they are experiencing (although something has changed with the input system because the logitech profiler has key binding issues where it didnt before).

 

But is there any comments on the force feedback not going slack when the trim is depressed or is the ball in logitechs court on that one?

(note: this is not a new bug but i was really hoping it would be fixed)

[Nate--IRL--]

Sure!

I will have guests in the next 20min for this evening/night- so please don't expect a track from me the next 12houers.

 

Absolutely no hurry, thanks

 

Yes what Nate said seems to explain what they are experiencing (although something has changed with the input system because the logitech profiler has key binding issues where it didnt before).

 

But is there any comments on the force feedback not going slack when the trim is depressed or is the ball in logitechs court on that one?

(note: this is not a new bug but i was really hoping it would be fixed)

 

Is this with BS1 and BS2? I recall hearing something about this on the G940 - is it just this stick or other sticks?

 

EDIT:- No, not just the G940, I get this to on my dirt cheap Logitech stick too.

 

Nate

Edited November 4, 2011 by Nate--IRL--

[sylkhan]

Mallet;1320497']I also get the pitch up upon releasing the trim button on my MS FFB2 when running BS2. The joystick trims as it should' date=' i.e. stays in place both physically as well as the virtual one but the shark behaves as if i reset trim when running a non-FFB joystick. Trim is correctly mapped. Currently running without FFB until a workaround can be identified.[/quote']

 

Exactly. Same for me

[fangav]

This old debate again .... :)

 

The trim is 2 systems working together.

 

1 is for holding the stick position and

2 is setting the 20% autopilot control authority for holding pitch, bank and heading positions, this control authority is NOT transferred to the stick position.

 

You cannot tell the amount of control input the autopilot is using. So when the trim button is pressed, the autopilots 20% authority disappears instantly -- > usually manifesting in a pitch up after accelerating slightly after trim was set.

 

If you try to replicate this with the Flight director on, the pitch up should not appear at all.

 

Nate

So is there an answer to this for BS2? It must have been fixed in BS1 because it works great, how?

[Nate--IRL--]

So is there an answer to this for BS2? It must have been fixed in BS1 because it works great, how?

 

I'd like to wait commenting on it further until I see Peters track, because to be honest I can only speculate as to what is actually happening.

 

That said - something must have changed for you all to be asking about it, I just don't know what yet.

 

Nate

[fangav]

I trust we can leave it in your capable hand then Nate and you'll get back to us asap.

P.S. Your description in post #9 is spot on to what is happening to me.

 

Cheers.

[Nobody96]

Maybee this track will help. I know its no great flying but it shows how the autopilot is pulling up when in normal mode and how he is not in FD mode.

 

so long

Mathias

 

EDIT: If I more tracks or specific data is needed, feel free to ask

Autopilot.trk

Edited November 4, 2011 by Nobody96

[Nate--IRL--]

OK from a quick watch of that track I think I spot the problem. The Autopilot 20% authority is being released when the trim button is released not when it is pressed. I'll have to confirm correct operation with Olgerd.

 

The fact that this doesn't happen with the FD only confirm in my mind that the autopilot authority is in play here.

 

However there was big debate before about trim methods. The Press, move, release (as used in Matthias's track) proves ineffective when dealing with changes to the flight regime (ie speeding up or slowing down) and will always lead to fighting the autopilot.

 

The method of move, press-depress every 2 seconds or so is more realistic, and if you watch the videos of real Ka-50s you'll see this. It accounts for changes to the flight regeime constantly, until the aircraft stabilises. The other method can not possibly do this.

 

I'll look into it a bit deeper tomorrow, when I get time.

 

Nate

[GCMallet]

Thanks Nate I'm beginning to get a feel for the trimming in BS2. With FD and a little adjustment to my trim technique I'm getting the response i expect.

[fangav]

Here is a short track showing the G940 performance.

Trim Test 1.trk

[PeterP]

As I know how hard it is to tell the different between wanted and unwanted control inputs in a Track I turned on the gauge-lights when I experience the pitch up that wasn't there in BS1.

 

And it is not there when I "blink" the trim repeatedly while changing the direction.

 

But from all I know about trimming in a helicopter this should also be possible when you press and hold trim + change direction and than release trim.

But every-time I do this I will have a pitch up.

And this is what I have done all the years in BS1 without the slightest problem and It was often told from testers/and RL-pilots that this is the right thing to do: Holding trim - Changing direction - than releasing Trim.

 

I think that the Trim logic has changed a bit:

BS1:

Hold down Trim = autopilot authority is released and you are able to move the cyclic freely as in FD mode.

Release Trim = autopilot authority is there again and readjusted to the the state the cyclic is while the trim has been released.

BS2:

Hold down Trim = autopilot authority is not released but you are able to move the cyclic freely as in FD mode.

Release Trim = the old autopilot authority is for a small time-period there again and than readjusted to the new state the cyclic is while the trim has been released. - this leads to a unwanted control.

 

 

And when you "blink" the trim the above described logic is still there but much less noticeable because the changes in the autopilot authority are much smaller.

 

But I don't think that this should be the thing you have to do...

So- my question is which files I have to tweak/overwrite to get the old FFB-trim behaviour back? ;)

 

Right now I use a Autohotkey-script that Switches on the Flight-Director mode while I hold down the trim button.

-So I have almost the old flight characteristic of BS1 back when trimming and the pitch up isn't so strong.

But this can't be the solution in my point of view.

 

EDIT:

And BTW - As I told yesterday- I had guests during the night... and I have a really strong hang-over now...

- so please don't expect to see me flying in a aesthetic way in the attached track.

Just observe the stick-input and the behaviour of the helicopter when I turn on the gauge-lights to underline that this was a unwanted "pitch up" I noticed.

 

 

PS: 11-07-2011

 

Had more time to test this at the weekend(yes -I had to "test" instead of flying.. -sad but true..) :

 

I want to underline that this "pitch up" issue every-time you trim is not only annoying and can be compensated by just giving a little more pitch-down on the cyclic after you released the trim...

 

The Ka-50 will get absolutely uncontrollable with more trimming !

 

Let me explain:

When You often trim while you have the FFB stick in a state when you have a negative pitch (something what you usually have all time in a helicopter) - The Auto-pilot channel adds a little positive pitch to your "virtual" stick position when you trim. - So you add a little negative pitch to your real stick to compensate this - and steer where you want instead of going up.

 

When you do this more often you will end having your FFB stick holding full deflected witch negative pitch while the Virtual stick is in positive pitch...

 

So you have no more axis-travel left to compensate this discrepancy in your Real to the Virtual position. - and you will end up facing you nose to the sky while you hold your stick full deflected forward....!

 

 

I have no curves or what-else tweaked in my MS-FFB2.

 

All time I praised BS for the accurate simulation of a helicopter cyclic trim system .

This is one was always of the greatest key features in this sim - Simulating the FM accurately.

So it gets also the attention of RL-Pilots that only want to fly around - instead of shooting stuff..

 

But I can't hold this statement with BS2.

 

In short:

BS2 is not Flyable with a FFB joystick any more.

 

Please,please,please have a sharp look what changed between BS1 and BS2.

 

Until this bug exist I won't fly in BS2 any more. - this should not sound like a threat... - it's just the truth.

Edited November 7, 2011 by PeterP