UTM Cords + "Mark is on the deck" ?

[mooshim]

Perhaps this is apples and oranges, but...

 

I've always wondered why police run their sirens on their way to a robbery in progress giving perps a chance to flee before arrival on the scene.

 

Just curious about... IRL

 

Let's say I am at the wheel of a AAA vehicle, I hear GE's turbofan engines far off in the distance--and suddenly see smoke dropped in my vicinity, I'd be pretty motivated to take it out of park, slam on the accelerator to get the hell outta there.

 

Why would a pilot inbound from IP need smoke if he/she already has been given UTM cords by JTAC? Is this standard operating procedure?

 

Thanks

 

Moosh

[Daimaju]

Hehe, nice comparison. The coordinates are not always pin-point, so marking the target(area) with smoke is actually a good idea. Of course, it could spook the target in R/L but... have you ever heard of anything successfully outrun the warthog?

 

"When you see the smoke, its already too late..."

 

Also, depending on the situation, the effect of spooking the target can be a desired reaction. A fleeing/moving enemy is less likely to efficiently engage friendly troops. And if smoke is dropped - there can be friendlies near by...

[Guest Fury_007]

YouTube a couple A-10 videos and you'll see why. In one of them you hear the controller begging for help. He throws down a couple smokes (green I believe) and tells the A-10 to keep his fire west of the smoke, north to south. A chilling video.

 

The sim models this pretty well. You only get smoke in danger close scenarios. Think about it like this. (I'm not sure if you've ever flown an airplane) you're at 4500 feet agl and you are given a grid coordinate. You look at your map and get an idea where it is. Then you grab your binos and look down and see some people shooting below you. I can guess it would be hard to tell who the good guys are. I know when I've been up there it's pretty hard to see details. Smoke would definitely help.

[Harzach]

...I hear GE's turbofan engines far off in the distance...

 

Ah, but you don't! One feature of turbofans in general is that they are relatively quiet. I forget the specifics, but the A-10 is essentially inaudible from the ground when above a certain altitude AGL - somewhere between 5,000 and 8,000.

[Avilator]

Ah, but you don't! One feature of turbofans in general is that they are relatively quiet. I forget the specifics, but the A-10 is essentially inaudible from the ground when above a certain altitude AGL - somewhere between 5,000 and 8,000.

 

With the sounds of battle going on, or a particularly loud idling vehicle, the Hog could be in gun range and you wouldn't hear the engines.

[mooshim]

rgr that about the engines.

 

But the smoke, though. If I were in the AO I would hate to ruin the surprise.:yay:

[nomdeplume]

I've always wondered why police run their sirens on their way to a robbery in progress giving perps a chance to flee before arrival on the scene.

I'd think it far preferrable for the perps to flee than for the cops to suddenly surprise them when there's hostages around, unknown weapons involved, etc. Sure it might cue them to start taking hostages and barricading themselves, but if they're willing to do that then it probably was their intention all along. But mostly the sirens and lights are to alert other traffic to their presence and urgency - allowing them to reach the scene much quicker (and more safely) than if they tried to be stealthy.

 

The priorities for the police when responding to an emergency is 1) protect civilians from harm, 2) protect themselves from harm, 3) protect the perps from harm, and 4) protect property. Priority 4 (and arguably 3) is WAY below 1 and 2. Catching people "in the act" is great for prosecutions, but you'd never put people at unncessary risk in order to do it. If the wailing of distant sirens scares them off, that's a good outcome.

 

Let's say I am at the wheel of a AAA vehicle, I hear GE's turbofan engines far off in the distance--and suddenly see smoke dropped in my vicinity, I'd be pretty motivated to take it out of park, slam on the accelerator to get the hell outta there.

Outrunning an aircraft isn't really a possibility and movement only makes it easier to spot you. Also, you wouldn't make for a very good anti-aircraft crew if your immediate reaction to the presence of an enemy aircraft was to run away. :)

 

Why would a pilot inbound from IP need smoke if he/she already has been given UTM cords by JTAC? Is this standard operating procedure?

Much easier to prosecute targets visually, really. Plus a lot of the time they're being tasked with attacking infantry rather than vehicles, and infantry are virtually invisible to an aircraft until you're right on top of them (and perhaps even then). Vehicles also tend to be camouflaged and placed in positions that make them hard to see from altitude, and in an airplane you need to start your approach from a pretty significant distance. So, having an obvious visual cue (bright smoke marker) lets the pilot start their run-in quicker and therefore got weapons on the target sooner -- which is pretty crucial in the kind of situation where the good guys are close enough to be marking the target with smoke.

 

The smoke also provides a confirmation of location. The coordinates might be wrong or mis-entered, or they might be right but you're still looking in the wrong place because the terrain features they described were similar to others in the area, etc. Multiple independent methods for identifying the target are always a good thing to have to avoid unfortunate incidents.

 

But the smoke, though. If I were in the AO I would hate to ruin the surprise.

I think if you're close enough to the enemy to be marking them with smoke, then ruining the surprise for them would be the least of your concerns. If they leg it the moment you put the smoke out, that's a fantastic outcome. And, it's hardly likely to save them from the air support, anyway. Win-win.

[hassata]

Smoke also gives you a good visual on wind conditions

[Mule]

In battle it is never going to be as clear cut as "there is smoke we better move" most of the time if you have an A-10 giving CAS it means it is probably kicking off big time and there is fighting already going on. The option to just move is just as deadly as it is to stay put because of the close proximity of your enemy etc.

[deltatango]

offset smoke

 

Don't know if it's possible in the sim with AI JTAC, but....

 

The smoke doesn't have to be ON the target. It can be dropped and then an attack position relative to the smoke passed to the pilot. Eg:

 

"Target is 500m north of smoke"

[SmokeyTheLung]

Don't know if it's possible in the sim with AI JTAC, but....

 

The smoke doesn't have to be ON the target. It can be dropped and then an attack position relative to the smoke passed to the pilot. Eg:

 

"Target is 500m north of smoke"

 

Just to add to that, pilots will apparently (sometimes :)) lay down two smokes than use that as a distance reference. (from A10s over Kosovo).

[SmokeyTheLung]

A little off topic...

I've just read that several, otherwise unstoppable, Tiger tanks were "knocked out" by white phosphorus tank shells during and after the normandy invasion of WWII. The crews just up and left their vehicles to get some fresh air!

 

Food for thought

[Torment]

A little food for though too is a JTAC is going to have tons of toys in his goodie bag. His laser designator may also have a rangefinder capability (CLDR). With a compass he can now give an accurate bearing and range from his position to target. The JTAC would provide his position during the AO update.

 

He could also have other datalink systems like Blue Force Tracker or Harris SA to show his position but I'm unsure of the A-10's ability to interface with those systems.

 

Arguably the best "weapon" a JTAC could carry with him would be a ROVER laptop. It's unencrypted but if the aircraft has direct LOS, the JTAC will recieve the pod's feed. Now it's a simple matter of the JTAC saying, "Left, left, left...left....STOP. That is your target"

 

There's also the "talk-on big-to-small" method:

JTAC: North of my position is a treeline 150m wide oriented east-west.

Pilot: Contact.

JTAC: At the west end of the treeline is a group of houses.

Pilot: Contact; just south of those houses I am capture a defensive fighting position with six pax and I'm observing small arms fire.

JTAC: Good capture, that is your target.

 

So these are just a couple of examples of how a JTAC would get the pilots eyes on.

[NoJoe]

I just finished (re)reading William Smallwood's book about A-10s in the first Gulf War. He describes that marking targets with smoke, especially later in the war, convinced the vehicle crews to run for their lives, making it even easier for the A-10s to destroy the armor.

 

The Air Force's main goal was to destroy the enemy's equipment, so this was a double bonus. Stationary tanks and artillery that didn't shoot back!

 

He also describes that since the A-10s were essentially silent above 5,000 feet, the smoke was merely an indicator that things were about to blow up. You didn't know when, or where, or from what. That was apparently demoralizing enough for the crews. "We're outta here!"

 

--NoJoe