Now there is also a US based mig-29

[mikoyan]

I don't know about the Indians, but in many cases TVC is primarily desired because of efficiency gains at high altitude cruise. The dogfighting aspect is nice, but it isn't the only thing it is good for.

 

then it is not a waste of money :thumbup:

Edited May 6, 2011 by mikoyan

[nscode]

So....

 

nice thing that MiG-29 :)

 

 

they should have left flare dispancers, even just mockups... it looks a bit sexier with them :)

 

oh and that guy has lots to learn. takeoff was all over the place

[zakobi]

I don't know about the Indians, but in many cases TVC is primarily desired because of efficiency gains at high altitude cruise. The dogfighting aspect is nice, but it isn't the only thing it is good for.

 

How does TVC help at high altitudes? Pointing the thrust slightly down or? :huh:

[Thor77]

So....

they should have left flare dispancers, even just mockups... it looks a bit sexier with them :)

 

As far as I know, UBs are not equipped with them.

[MoGas]

So....

 

nice thing that MiG-29 :)

 

 

they should have left flare dispancers, even just mockups... it looks a bit sexier with them :)

 

oh and that guy has lots to learn. takeoff was all over the place

 

UB's have no flares dispancers, and his take off was not over the place either..Its not the FC2.0 Miggy, when rolling...and his landing was nice too...I guess this pilot dosent need much training. ;)

 

:smartass:

Edited May 6, 2011 by MoGas

[Mikoyan89]

... why would anyone want a MiG-35 when they can buy something better?

Maybe political reasons,or costs...I don't think that if a fighter is simply better than its rivals is automatically sold...Anyway,it's true,nobody showed interests for the MiG35 until now.

[GGTharos]

At supersonic speeds (specifically supercruising from the Raptor experience), the you can deflect the exhaust to keep you level instead of the elevators, thus eliminating some sources of drag. Basically you can go at the same speed at slightly lower fuel consumption.

 

How does TVC help at high altitudes? Pointing the thrust slightly down or? :huh:

[RIPTIDE]

Trim drag. The canards on the EF also try to reduce the effects of trim drag.

[Sulman]

I don't know about the Indians, but in many cases TVC is primarily desired because of efficiency gains at high altitude cruise. The dogfighting aspect is nice, but it isn't the only thing it is good for.

 

You're talking fractions of a degree, there.

 

I don't think one should be so dismissive of post-stall maneuverability. Stating it is redundant because of the capability of AAM's is very simplistic, not unsimilar to the belief that the cannon was finished in the 1950's for the same reasons.

 

If cruise drag efficiency was a primary design criteria then the design of the F-22, Sukhoi and MiG TVC systems would not have featured such ambitious nozzle capability, capable of large angles off the engine centreline, as this is very challenging to design for in terms of weight, reliability, and maintenance.

[RvETito]

The US got around 20 MiG-29's from Moldova in 1997, most of them have not been airworthy. I've just seen pictures of them been loaded to C-17's, then in 1998 I read that launches of R-73's have been conducted in US and that the most interesting things have been the jammer (yes, there have been 9-13S among them) and the HMS. The Pentagon's official statement was that they are getting them to avoid the planes to reach Iran, especially the 9-13S which are able to carry one nuclear bomb RN-40 on the inner left pylon. I never ever read or heard anything about the 29's in the US. I thought they would form an agressor squadron with them but I guess they've realized that it's much cheaper to use the german and now bulgarian 29's instead.

[GGTharos]

I don't think one should be so dismissive of post-stall maneuverability. Stating it is redundant because of the capability of AAM's is very simplistic, not unsimilar to the belief that the cannon was finished in the 1950's for the same reasons.

 

No, it isn't simplistic, and it isn't even close to the same thing. Removing a weapon that was reliable because of strong belief in weapons that were not reliable is one thing. Having some silly notion that 'post stall maneuvering' will do anything other than get you killed when faced with a missile, HOBS or otherwise, is suicidal. If you're counting on making the other guy overhsoot-you by essentially falling out of the sky in front of him, and it works, the other guy - and his wingman - are idiots. There's really not much else to it. Post-stall maneuverability is only useful in a very narrow set of circumstances. What TVC WILL give you is better AoA before any sort of stall ... which can help you win the turn IF you haven't been shot in the face going into it.

 

If cruise drag efficiency was a primary design criteria then the design of the F-22, Sukhoi and MiG TVC systems would not have featured such ambitious nozzle capability, capable of large angles off the engine centreline, as this is very challenging to design for in terms of weight, reliability, and maintenance.

Just because you think it is useful, doesn't mean it isn't a gimmick. Against aircraft that don't sport the most modern of missiles it's great. But let's get something straight here: Raptors 'killed' F-16's with AIM-X and JHMCS while carrying AIM-9M's because they were stealth ... not because they had TVC.

[vrv]

[tflash]

TVC is not only pursued for manoevrability. In a classic aircraft, manoevring is passive, ie obtained through drag. With TVC, you can apply directional forces. You can use that for STOL scenario's, where you get shorter take-off and better control on landing / lower landing speeds, or you can use it in flight to bleed less energy in tight turns or simply in straight flight, where in particular for an inherently unstable design you can make minimal flight path corrections without incurring too much drag.

Most important, the latter saves fuel. While the weight / complexity penalty was very prohibitive in the past to make the equation work, now even a .5% fuel efficiency gain through lower drag on an entire fleet buys you a few extra aircraft in the end.

[nscode]

Would you look at that! never noticed it :D

 

 

wasn't comparing to FC ;)