Flight envelope issue when using Full G Effects

[LiquidFuse]

As I promised I've dug out some values from AnPetrovich.These are time limits to blackout (not to unconciousness) for the certain g-values for the fresh pilot.

6 - 70 s

7 - 40 s

8 - 22 s

9 - 12 s

So if you get blackout faster you pull the stick too fast.

And now the pilots can estimate our "medium pilot" ability to withstand the G-load.

Unfortunately I could not pull the refreshing time from the author because this function is very complicated and depends on several factors... :)

 

YO-YO,

 

Please view this: http://169thpanthers.net/main/Tracks/Gz-1.zip

 

This is a test track made by the CO of 169th Black Panthers putting the Full G Effects model to the test.

 

As you will see in this track, he slowly pulls from 1 to 6 G's as gently as he can, holding G's at each integer every 10 - 20 seconds each.

 

There is absolutely no hard turning or yanking in this track at any time...simple pull to 6 G's.

 

Here its proven that the model goes into A-LOC at 6 G's in merely 10 - 15 seconds.

 

The results from the track contradict the AnPetrovich data you just posted.

 

I don't think that arguing over the pinpoint accuracy of the model is going to do anyone any good. What is clear here is that the current behavior of the model contradicts real world data, even the data you just posted, where it clearly states 6 G's for 70 seconds.

 

FC 1.1 - 6 G's = A-LOC in 10 - 15 seconds.

 

Please mark Ice's track for your review, which essentially proves and shows what I explained from the very beggining... :frown:

 

Thank you.

[Pilotasso]

let YO YO answer my question to see if indeed it used data data from petrovich's advice was fully entered in the code. ;)

[mikoyan]

what is the best turn speed for the flanker ?

[Cobra360]

Its around 500-600kph depending on the weight and the altitude you are flying at.

The same is true of the MiG-29 aswell. The Su-27 performs better at lower speeds than an F-15 of F-16 can. At higher speeds where the F-15 and F-16 are in the element the Su-27 is equal to them.

 

Once you go above 700kph in a max G turn in the Flanker you will notice the radius start to increase which you don't want. The Flanker favours the low speed turning fights.

[Yo-Yo]

Han just have recorded three trcks to show that our "pilot" is not so weak somebody want to prove. There are three tracks - 6+ g turn, 8 g turn and guns only dogfight.

GLock.zip

[Pilotasso]

then we must be doing something very worng because I simply cant do that unless I set G settings to reduced...if thats the case then that is a moot argument since I only fly MP with LOMAC and all servers have it set to full.

[Boneski]

I did not see your track but what was speed? Did it increase while loading the plane with G? There are flat spots in the Max performance curves in most jets that you have to watch out for.. Pulling the stick back to make a min radius circle is don't really a good test of the g model. Use G only when you have to...

 

 

YO-YO,

 

Please view this: http://169thpanthers.net/main/Tracks/Gz-1.zip

 

This is a test track made by the CO of 169th Black Panthers putting the Full G Effects model to the test.

 

As you will see in this track, he slowly pulls from 1 to 6 G's as gently as he can, holding G's at each integer every 10 - 20 seconds each.

 

There is absolutely no hard turning or yanking in this track at any time...simple pull to 6 G's.

 

Here its proven that the model goes into A-LOC at 6 G's in merely 10 - 15 seconds.

 

The results from the track contradict the AnPetrovich data you just posted.

 

I don't think that arguing over the pinpoint accuracy of the model is going to do anyone any good. What is clear here is that the current behavior of the model contradicts real world data, even the data you just posted, where it clearly states 6 G's for 70 seconds.

 

FC 1.1 - 6 G's = A-LOC in 10 - 15 seconds.

 

Please mark Ice's track for your review, which essentially proves and shows what I explained from the very beggining... :frown:

 

Thank you.

[Boneski]

I did not see your track but what was the ownship’s speed? Did it increase while loading the plane with G? There are flat spots in the Max performance curves in most jets that you have to watch out for.. games hit these flat spots really well.

 

Pulling the stick back to make a min radius circle is not really a good test of the g model.

What was your air temp set to? Was there any wind?

 

Remember in the game you can pull g in a vacuum…sorta

 

 

 

YO-YO,

 

Please view this: http://169thpanthers.net/main/Tracks/Gz-1.zip

 

This is a test track made by the CO of 169th Black Panthers putting the Full G Effects model to the test.

 

As you will see in this track, he slowly pulls from 1 to 6 G's as gently as he can, holding G's at each integer every 10 - 20 seconds each.

 

There is absolutely no hard turning or yanking in this track at any time...simple pull to 6 G's.

 

Here its proven that the model goes into A-LOC at 6 G's in merely 10 - 15 seconds.

 

The results from the track contradict the AnPetrovich data you just posted.

 

I don't think that arguing over the pinpoint accuracy of the model is going to do anyone any good. What is clear here is that the current behavior of the model contradicts real world data, even the data you just posted, where it clearly states 6 G's for 70 seconds.

 

FC 1.1 - 6 G's = A-LOC in 10 - 15 seconds.

 

Please mark Ice's track for your review, which essentially proves and shows what I explained from the very beggining... :frown:

 

Thank you.

[Ice]

As I promised I've dug out some values from AnPetrovich.These are time limits to blackout (not to unconciousness) for the certain g-values for the fresh pilot.

6 - 70 s

7 - 40 s

8 - 22 s

9 - 12 s

So if you get blackout faster you pull the stick too fast.

And now the pilots can estimate our "medium pilot" ability to withstand the G-load.

Unfortunately I could not pull the refreshing time from the author because this function is very complicated and depends on several factors... :)

 

Han just have recorded three trcks to show that our "pilot" is not so weak somebody want to prove. There are three tracks - 6+ g turn, 8 g turn and guns only dogfight.

 

Using Han's tracks as data..

 

6 - 70 s: Not achieved. 56 Seconds at best and the needle dropped under 6 a couple of times

7 - 40 s: Not achieved. 32 seconds by my test !BlackOut-test-7

8 - 22 s: Spot on. From 19 seconds to 41 seconds in the track

9 - 12 s: Close. 10 Seconds !BlackOut-test-9

 

As for the guns only dogfight. Im not a fighter pilot but I find it hard to believe that a real pilot could sustain such extreme Grey-Outs repeatedly in such a short space of time. To me they would be classed as blackouts. It seems that if the pilot greyed out that much he would need a long period of time to recover before doing the same thing again. In that dogfight most of it was tunnel vision.

[GGTharos]

According to what I've heard (and this is 3rd and 4th hand info, but I had no reason to think it false yet) a pilot will recover within about 30 sec completely when unloaded because of the brain being fed oxygen again.

 

There are things that assist in speedier recovery and better resistance to g's, particularely the oxygen mask (you get saturated with oxygen so you can work with less blood in the brain would be a simplistic explanation of this) and of course straining and g-suits further assist in all this.

 

There have been numerous demonstrations of the F-16's 'constant 9g turning' ability in which the pilot's hauling 9 or or close to 9 g's for a 360 turn which can be as long as 29-30 seconds. Then he goes on to continue pulling 4-5-6 and then 8 g's and so on. I think the onset of blackout is too quick even when the pilot is 'tired' in this case, to be honest - at least compared to that particular pilot.

[LiquidFuse]

As for the guns only dogfight. Im not a fighter pilot but I find it hard to believe that a real pilot could sustain such extreme Grey-Outs repeatedly in such a short space of time. To me they would be classed as blackouts. It seems that if the pilot greyed out that much he would need a long period of time to recover before doing the same thing again. In that dogfight most of it was tunnel vision.

 

What Ice 169th is describing here is known as A-LOC which is *almost* a G-LOC. Real pilots are trained to recognize light loss (their unique type of light loss) and to take appropiate action once they detect light loss. Light loss is the singlemost important symptoss of G-LOC, with a blackout being the last symptom. Real pilots don't go on pulling constant G's when their field of vision has shrunk to the size of a peanut.

 

As I stated before, I recently talked to several pilots and one of them (KnellKnell) actually posted here that 7G's can be sustained for prolonged periods of time without A-LOC. I'm not sure which part of this statement is confusing to the Dev's.

 

Instead, you (ED) make a track that shows several yanks and hard pulls with the pilot almost G-LOC'ed on several occasions and say this is how its supposed to be...

 

Does the word brain damage mean anything to you? Do you truly think pilots go on to Gray/Black Out at every single hop? Why don't you get one of your "source" pilots to come in here and say "I G-LOC at 6 G's after 50 seconds EVERY TIME. I can't do any better than that".

 

It is clear to me that you are more interested in defending your model than actually evaluating "the other data" that other players (and pilots) have posted here and truly consider the possibility that you may have gone overboard just a tad on the g-tolerances.

[Yo-Yo]

As I stated before, I recently talked to several pilots and one of them (KnellKnell) actually posted here that 7G's can be sustained for prolonged periods of time without A-LOC. I'm not sure which part of this statement is confusing to the Dev's.

 

Instead, you (ED) make a track that shows several yanks and hard pulls with the pilot almost G-LOC'ed on several occasions and say this is how its supposed to be...

 

Does the word brain damage mean anything to you? Do you truly think pilots go on to Gray/Black Out at every single hop? Why don't you get one of your "source" pilots to come in here and say "I G-LOC at 6 G's after 50 seconds EVERY TIME. I can't do any better than that".

 

It is clear to me that you are more interested in defending your model than actually evaluating "the other data" that other players (and pilots) have posted here and truly consider the possibility that you may have gone overboard just a tad on the g-tolerances.

 

I can not understand what are you interesting in. If the new model is inconvenient to you you are free to switch G-effects to each model you want including no G-effects position. The FOV shrinks? Does it hurt you while you are dogfighting? Or you think that your "virtual alter ego" is the champion and can bear 7g better than others? Don't you think that he could have a good cocktail party last evening? :) Please keep in mind that you easily can turn your virtual head while 7g presses you and your arms are not 7 times harder and your stick movement is still precise. I guess that this A-lock even if it's overmodelled a little is a small equivalent of real G pressure.

[LiquidFuse]

I can not understand what are you interesting in. If the new model is inconvenient to you you are free to switch G-effects to each model you want including no G-effects position.

 

LOL :icon_lol: Give me a break, are you serious?

 

Grab your reading glasses before you attempt to read the following:

 

1 - Edit the G-model to allow for the F-15C to sustain a turn at its real world turning speed of 350 KIAS without going into A-LOC.

 

2 - I am an ONLINE PLAYER, not single play. The SERVERS control this, not my personal settings.

 

Placed it nice and big in bold letters for you, there should be no mistakes here.

 

The FOV shrinks? Does it hurt you while you are dogfighting? Or you think that your "virtual alter ego" is the champion and can bear 7g better than others? Don't you think that he could have a good cocktail party last evening? :) Please keep in mind that you easily can turn your virtual head while 7g presses you and your arms are not 7 times harder and your stick movement is still precise. I guess that this A-lock even if it's overmodelled a little is a small equivalent of real G pressure.

 

Sorry buddy, but you can't excuse an oversensitive G-model with the existence of precise aiming at high G turns...

 

There's no excusing 1 attribute with the effect of another... Just like there was no excuse for the Flanker not turning properly in 1.02 at low speeds because it kept stalling...

 

Why don't we save ourselves some time and energy and you post here plain and clearly if you will do something about this, or not.

 

I'm waiting for your answer.

[Pilotasso]

Lets cool down peaople. ED team does read this, lets not abuse that advantage. They'll probably change G modeling for our requests only as long as we do it all together. I do find some contradiction as others did between the theory exposed here and the practise in the game. G lock modeling correction and AMRAAM behaviour fix should cure all the problems F-15 drivers complain when online. I do fly other fighters but F-15 is my fav by far.I have barely mastered the F-15 in 1.1 yet again like I did for 1.02, will have so much harder time with the others, I also hate loosing by learning them online:D

 

Lets hope for the best.

[mikoyan]

Thank you Cobra

Do you know how to beat an f-15 ? online

[Pilotasso]

It is sufficient to have the host set missile slider to 50%. Wich kills the AMRAAM Completely. Then its optimum range I established to be arround 14 miles aprox. At 10 miles it will fly straight ahead gainst a manuevering target and at 20 miles it simply loose track of the target, often swiching for an friendly plane if the air is being pumped with ECM. I find myself numerous times using the Sidwinders as primary weapons on the F-15 and then G-lock limits impose.

 

It only takes someone who knows how to use the EOS (wich now sees up to 20 miles or more) and HOJ passive missile shot. Its not by chance that most people are now flying Mig-29's. Under 15 miles a mig first shot of R-77 garauntees kills 80% of the times.

 

At 100% missile slider the eagle rules again for pilots like me who fly them the most.

I actualy have pics of scores during several online sessions in either S77 server (100%) or jabog32 server (50%) the contrast is like night and day.

[mikoyan]

I kill and get kill , dogfight is my problem , those eagles guys are good , I need to know the best way to beat them.

[Weta43]

Quote "It is sufficient to have the host set missile slider to 50%. Wich kills the AMRAAM Completely. At 10 miles it will fly straight ahead gainst a manuevering target and at 20 miles it simply loose track of the target."

then -

"Its not by chance that most people are now flying Mig-29's. Under 15 miles a mig first shot of R-77 garauntees kills 80% of the times. "

 

I'm pretty sure I've read here repeatedly that ED has said the modelling of the AIM120 & the R77 are the same, except for a range difference.

This means that unless the R77 has more than 50% more range than an AIM120 a shot at 10 miles with an AIM120 is the same thing as a shot with an R77 at 15 miles.

[Phil_C6]

Hi men

The subject of this post is the G loc please open another for talk of BVR tactics and gunzo

 

Good evening @+

[RvEGrendel]

im luving the g-load,and honestly by the criteria i was following like the aerodynamics and stuff like that im pretty content with what Eagle dynamics done too the g load.

Just think 1.02 worse not modeling the g-load as well as they've done now.

 

Su's always make short work off f-15 if u ask me, but hey im an prejeduced su27 flyer hehehehe.

[Goshawk1]

Hi gents,

 

Here is my personnal experience about Gs. I fell a lot of factors affecting my Gs resistance, one of those being the Gs per second I use to reach a certain G load. The quicker I reach a G peak, the shorter I can sustain the Gs. If I go right away to 7 Gs without warming me up before that and let s say I m at 7 Gs in one second, I know I wont sustain a constant 7 Gs for more than let s say 30 sec. Moreover, going very quickly to high G load might result in G lock without the normal steps encountered before that (you can loose conciousnees with no warning).

If I warm me up with 2 180 degrees 4 Gs turn in each direction, I can sustain Gs much better, and if I apply Gs gradually after that, I notice a huge improvement.

Another point is, that when I reach my limits under high Gs, I fly a "field of view"

I will never allow to loose my vision totally, but I will gradually let my field of view narrow so that I can still track the bandit and keep my situational awarness.

Then,if I take a break and pull some more Gs, I ll pull to that same "field of view" I m confortable with, but I will reach it more gradually than the first time, so that I don t knock me out.

My point is, in Lock On, considering the way the sim deals with pilots getting tired, it is very difficult to handle flying under high G load because of lack of reference.

There is no way to know what s the pilot status (rested, tired, exhausted) and it s very difficult to fly a "field of view" to get the maximum out of the pilot/jet.

The Pilot model look realistic to my opinion, but it is rather diffifult to feel it, as I mentioned earlier.

Simple things such as pilot breathing rythm might help a lot in this matter.

 

I hope I helped a little bit :)

Let me know if ur real life experience with Gs is anywhere close to mine

 

Goshawk1

[Yo-Yo]

The Pilot model look realistic to my opinion, but it is rather diffifult to feel it, as I mentioned earlier.

Simple things such as pilot breathing rythm might help a lot in this matter.

 

I hope I helped a little bit :)

Let me know if ur real life experience with Gs is anywhere close to mine

 

Goshawk1

 

Thank you for your opinion, sir! :) Your idea about pilot's hard breathing is very interesting... could I ask you to record some samples for us? (I am serious).

P.S.

I am afraid though if we insert hard breathing into the game somebody can misunderstand us. :)

[ALDEGA]

I am afraid though if we insert hard breathing into the game somebody can misunderstand us. :)

Nobody minded the heavy-breathing sound in Operation Flashpoint ;)

[LiquidFuse]

S! Goshawk1,

 

I agree with your post fully and I take this opportunity to point our the following:

 

Hi gents,

 

If I go right away to 7 Gs without warming me up before that and let s say I m at 7 Gs in one second, I know I wont sustain a constant 7 Gs for more than let s say 30 sec.

 

From the research that I've done this past month I can conclude that your personal tolerance is normal, where 7 G's is usually implicitely used as the benchmark G figure to test USAF pilots in (8 G's is used to test F-16 pilots).

 

Consider the following:

 

I've undergone consistent testing while flying the F-15C and under a normal dogfight situation, a sustained 7 G turn for at least 30 seconds is not possible in FC 1.1. Within the second or third turn, my pilot goes into A-LOC on a 300 KIAS turn holding 6 G's at a time frame of merely 14-16 seconds.

 

I haver argued all along that 7 G's is the figure that modern pilots should be able to hold and is the NATO minimum G load factor that all flight crews need to withstand for 15 seconds in order to have "normal" G load tolerance.

 

Again, the current G model does not allow for this to happen except on the very first turn after a fresh respawn. All subsequent turns result in A-LOC in 15 seconds or less at 6 G's, with 5 G's being the "turning G load" figure in which dogfights must be carried out in FC 1.1.

 

- This means, sustained 5 G turn on an F-15C with 6,000 pounds of fuel onboard = 280 KIAS turn.

 

- The turning speed for the F-15C is 350 KIAS.

 

- At 280 KIAS, the F-15C is turning at about 70% of its total turn rate capacity.

 

- At the same speed, the Flanker is turning close ot 100% of its total turn rate capacity.

 

In conclusion, my argument with ED is that unless the pilots can withstand 7 G's for 30 seconds or more, the F-15C has no chance of fighting in speed figures in which it was designed to fight on (350 KIAS). Hence, the Flanker wins, nearly everytime.

 

I have personally concluded that they are happy with this outcome.

[Phil_C6]

Hi

The low AOA of the F15 in Lo (it seems about 10° of less than the real) is the second reason ;-)

 

Have a good day @+