New MIGs are coolers

[Esac_mirmidon]

The difficult part is reach a WVR scenario for a Mig-29A against a F-16 who is vastly superior in BVR. And also in short range combat the Mig pilot should be very very very talented.

[Shinigami]

If you're talking about COPE India, it was 30 Indian planes vs 4 F-15E's defending a static target and limited to STT shots, even if they were simulating an active missile.

 

In this situation, there's nothing to compare.

 

The conditions of the IAF-USAF exercise in Gwalior did not prove anything in absolute terms. Under certain other conditions, in particular, with massive deployment of electronic support (communications, aerial battle coordination, electronic countermeasures, etc.), the Americans would probably handle themselves very differently and the Indians would probably not have carried the day.

 

However, the fact remains that after the IAF-USAF exercise and the media blaze surrounding it, the myth of near-invincibility of the USAF has suffered a serious if not fatal blow. Certain American weaknesses in crew performance appeared during the simulated aerial combat. These confirm periodic reports of shortcomings in the capabilities of the American pilots and limitations in their range of action.

 

In general, the judgments made on the conduct of the American pilots in their action against the Indian pilots refer to the "absence of initiative, stereotype attitudes, blind obedience to rehearsed scenarios, lack of adaptability, etc". The American pilots are generally well trained, with very elaborate routines, but the highly structured nature of the training itself leads to a certain predictability in behaviour. This weakness leads one to question the validity of the method, especially like those being experienced.

This is part of the IAF inform on COPE

 

Sorry for posting in chunk but I'm reading the inform as I post.

 

In more general terms, the American pilots operate in highly centralized systems, highly controlled - albeit in a 'sophisticated', low-profile, way i.e. the pilots are centralized and controlled indirectly through procedures and methods that are presented as affording greater freedom of action and effectiveness, whereas in effect, the procedures and methods merely iterate the general pattern.

 

The guiding concept is one a 'system of systems', the reduction of constraint providing the illusion of freedom of action, while buttressing a rigid overall framework that effectively ensures broad general constraint.

 

In 1965, the Americans used high technology fighter aircraft (F-105s, F-4s), with highly automated capabilities (missiles, radar, etc.), in total disregard of the lessons of the Korean War. During the 1965-68 Rolling Thunder campaign, the Americans encountered serious problems in outgunning the much less powerful North Vietnamese, which was highly distressing for a combatant commanding massive superiority. It was only after a radical change in combat doctrine and tactics, through the establishment of the Top Guns schools in 1969 and through tactics like Dissimilar Air Combat Tactics (DACT) that the Americans succeeded in reversing the situation in the course of the 1972 campaign, where the USAF chalked up 10 enemy aircraft kills for each US aircraft destroyed by the North Vietnamese. These doctrines and tactics had favoured decentralization in all forms: initiative, pilot adaptability, and so on.

 

As from end of the 1970s, the above situation again began to turn against the Americans, under the weight of constraints that involved technical factors (need for control and centralisation of advanced technologies) as well as psychological factors (need for psychological conformity with the American system). Major campaigns were organised annually for highly planned and centralised training, around the concept of Red Flag at Nellis AFB, in Nevada. The idea was to organise vast aerial combat training campaigns with in-depth tactical intervention, under the central control of aerial-electronic surveillance capability, such as AWACS aircraft and its successors. Allied aircraft were invited to participate, with some signing up enthusiastically for the American programme and putting themselves fully under American control (the case for the majority of the countries), by maintaining their national and their independence (the case of the French and the very recent case of India).

 

Often quoted has been Colonel Mike Snodrass, Commander of the USAF's 3rd Wing at Elmendorf Air Force Base, which sent the F-15Cs for the simulated dogfight (at Gwalior against IAF Su-30Ks, Mirage 2000s and modified MiG-21s, the "Bison").

 

"What happened to us was it looks like our Red Flag air training might not be as good because the adversaries are better than we thought. And in the case of the Indian Air Force, both their training and some of their training was better thn we anticipated".

 

This 'incident' has caused quite a brouhaha in the United States. There was a political and strategic assessment, as well as an operational rundown. In any event, what was clear was that the best fighter aircraft the American "superpower: could field was outclassed in aerial combat by the Indian fighters by a crushing nine wins to one. America was beaten at her own game - advanced technology and aerial combat.

 

It would be very interesting see a mockup without any help from Aerial Combat Controls

Edited August 13, 2013 by Shinigami

[GGTharos]

That's great ... you do realize that Teen fighters could shoot targets with 45 deg OBA too, right? The difference is that you need to slave the missile to radar.

 

The AA-11 gives a better engagement zone for this (shorter min range for a lot of situations), and it allows you to launch the missile when other sensors have not been used to lock that target.

 

So yes, the HMS/R-73 combo IS better in WVR, but if you don't enter that fight with some advantage to begin with, it won't make a big difference.

 

This is and extract from a inform regarding Mig-29 vs F-16 form IAF

[GGTharos]

There is nothing at all you can take back from this exercise except that the F-15E's there played a particular role, and that is it. The commentary here is basically garbage, since no air force brings their best game to such exercises. Nor is 30v4 scenario really expected to be won by the 4-ship. Now -that- would be something to write home about. The other way around? Not really.

 

This is part of the IAF inform on COPE

 

Sorry for posting in chunk but I'm reading the inform as I post.

[Shinigami]

That's great ... you do realize that Teen fighters could shoot targets with 45 deg OBA too, right? The difference is that you need to slave the missile to radar.

 

The AA-11 gives a better engagement zone for this (shorter min range for a lot of situations), and it allows you to launch the missile when other sensors have not been used to lock that target.

 

So yes, the HMS/R-73 combo IS better in WVR, but if you don't enter that fight with some advantage to begin with, it won't make a big difference.

 

Your are right, but they always play with advantage, An interesting Fight would be in absence of signal intelligence, satellite guidance, automated software control and in hi ECM environment.

 

And in better view is like Kaktus29 said one aspect that emerged quite quickly in thous exercises was the commercial aspect in the field - international competition for the sale of high technology weapon systems.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Shinigami

[GGTharos]

None of that was used in BFM exercises.

 

Your are right, but they alway play with advantage, An interesting Fight would be in absence of signal intelligence, satellite guidance, automated software control and in hi ECM.

[Shinigami]

what's BFM?

[GGTharos]

Basic Fighter Maneuvers, aka dogfighting.

[Shinigami]

thanks :) I came across this article reading the inform of the IAF ind the forum:

 

Su-30MK Beats F-15C 'Every Time

 

Aviation Week and Space Technology By David A. Fulghum and Douglas Barrie [May 24, 2002]

 

http:// http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/689025/posts?page=119

 

What you think of it. Hocus pocus or real facts

[GGTharos]

More garbage :)

 

Let's put it this way ... The F-15C will always be superior to any Su-27 variant for the simple reason that it get more money poured into being better.

 

BUT! Again, saying 'superior' is a matter of degree, for example a Su-30MKI2 is a very dangerous opponent, so is the Su-35S. The latest Chinese variant should also be pretty dangerous.

 

While the Su-27SM3 is not a very competitive opponent against an F-15C, it's also not a plane you can ignore.

 

All of this stuff is great at BVR, WVR is the 'great equalizer'. Once you don't need radar (or IRST, or whatever) to see your opponent, all the fancy gadgets (and stealth) usually lose value, so in a WVR arena, even the lowly MiG-15 (lowly today, that is, it was great back in its day) can be a dangerous opponent.

 

So, while a fighter can be superior to another, we have other things to think of as well:

 

1) Training of the pilots

2) Circumstances of the fight

3) Unexpected factors like your enemy having your radar design papers

 

So, we can say one play is better than another, but this only matters when we are talking about a 'fair fight with equal pilots'.

[FanBoy2006.01]

@fanboy.. why US allies won in air wars versus soviet union products was strategic nature, not plane A is better than plane B...

 

In my post I was supporting the MiG-29.

 

And that is just the thing. There are many factors that contribute to the victories in real combat over the MiG-29 specifically.

 

But what I revered to was that the USA tried to engage on their terms (Meaning the strengths of the F-15 in particular.) and not that of the MiG-29.

 

What the Vietnam People's Air Force achieved is extremely impressive; but you must also remember that there were certain restrictions placed on the USA.

If the USAF, USN and USMC just bombed the Hell out of North Vietnam's Airbases, there wouldn't have been much of an fighter threat against them in the first place. They also had other restrictions about which ground targets they could attack.

The USA also didn't give chase to aircraft that temporarily fled into Chinese airspace. They flew predictable paths into enemy airspace. And, like you said, they weren't trained for ACM any more, etc.

 

I am not the kind of person that keeps yelling: "Mine is better yours!". But I have seen in many fields that in competition, a small advantage can be exploited to triumph over your opponent.

[Pilotasso]

What's that in the F-14's gunsight?

 

 

What tomcat variant?

 

Those cant be TF30 engines, the pilots would be heroes achieving this BFM kill.

[GGTharos]

Probably something without TF30's ;)

[IvanK]

Hmm .... looks like a fixed reticle to me, there is no reticle motion with aircraft G changes .... i.e. its a pegged shot.

 

I think its a bog standard "A" model (TF30:) based on the HUD symbology. A+ and D had different style HUD symbology

Edited August 13, 2013 by IvanK

[GGTharos]

Come to think of it, all of the symbology is fixed ...

[IvanK]

Yes NAVY cheap shots :)

 

French Steam v USN

 

 

But getting back to the thread theme, Older Migs are even "cooler"

 

Edited August 14, 2013 by IvanK

[Night]

I want to fly DCS: Tu-160 White Swan (NATO designation is Blackjack) :D

 

Really though, I think ED's fan base would absolutely love a multiple fighter, like the F/A-18 or the Su-30MK. The Su-30MK is a two seater, but the Huey has multiple positions as well and it works fine.

 

Honestly though, I can't explain why, but my ultimate wish would be to see DCS: Su-34. I don't know why but I think it is a gorgeous aircraft and I'd love to see a study level DCS sim for it :D

[Yob]

I would love to see, russian stuff equal to US stuff since in real life they are. oh if some one does not agree well in iraq 30+ F-15's vs a Mig 29 that did not have radar or major equipment. or in india 4 F-15E vs Su-30MKI the one with larger numbers win, (ya can't have it both ways) would sincerely love to see them equal and Russian stuff not handicapped to be like 15 to 20 years older in game. Why not put in the more modern russian stuff instead of A model Mig 29's

[RIPTIDE]

would sincerely love to see them equal and Russian stuff not handicapped to be like 15 to 20 years older in game. Why not put in the more modern russian stuff instead of A model Mig 29's

There's MiG-29S + "R-77" + TWS (somewhere between the patches).

[Yob]

Well even the S is old the M model was put on paper around 1984 which means it is still a old aircraft compared to newer US stuff in DCS like a F-15E which was built around 1988

[Teknetinium]

What kind of poll is that, It seem the one who made it has little understanding about this aircrafts, They should not be in same poll since its aicrafts from different classes., Moderators I would like you to stop polls that are not giving anything, rather than confusion. polls should be more accurate. Su-30MK,MIG-21MF and Mig-23 lol, how can you put this aircrafts in same pool.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Teknetinium

[Yob]

What kind of poll is that, It seem the one who made it has little understanding about this aircrafts, They should not be in same poll since its aicrafts from different classes., Moderators I would like you to stop polls that are not giving anything, rather than confusion. polls should be more accurate. Su-30MK,MIG-21MF and Mig-23 lol, how can you put this aircrafts in same pool.

 

:thumbup: and the T-50

[Shinigami]

I think that is time that DCS updates the 3d model of the Mig-29 is very ugly in comparison with beautiful, marvelous, amazing, incredible, [insert yours] Su-27 3d model.

 

I read somewhere in the forum that RAZBAM is doing a Mig-29 I hope SMT, M, K.

[GGTharos]

I would expect the SMT to be easier to make in terms of information available than the others.

 

I don't think the MiG-29 3D model is that bad, but it's due for an update at some point too.

[Shinigami]

:thumbup: and the T-50

 

jajajaja okok you are right but in the time of the poll everybody was asking for USA hardware. And the plan was to add a poll for RUS hardware. And it work at lease in DCS MIG-21BIS.

 

Maybe is time to update the poll using classification like Interceptor, Multirole, Bomber, Fighter. And ad planes for every categories.