Questions for real fighter pilots (if any here)

[Pirke77]

-Real defense against R27 and R77 and R73 in real life (what you learn in your fighter schools) for USA pilots

-Real defense against AIM120 and AIM9 in real life (what you learn in your fighter schools) for Russian pilots

 

-Real attack with R27 and R77 and R73 in real life (what you learn in your fighter schools) for Russian pilots

-Real attack with AIM120 and AIM9 in real life (what you learn in your fighter schools) for USA pilots

 

PLS don't mess FC2 game with this questions only real life experiences and military practice ( if any real fighter pilot read this )

 

if this is TOP SECRET or you don't now then don't replay :)

 

P.S.

 

my opinion is that here i will not get answer :)

[GGTharos]

You won't get answers to that except for generic:

 

Put the missile on the beam, countermeasures, make sure you have the speed for an ortho-roll. Best evasive maneuvers are out-of-plane (thus putting the missile on the beam). For IRH do IRCM before the merge (be at speed, pull throttle). Preferably force look-down against missiles.

 

Because information pertaining to the missiles themselves is classified, and the ways of getting information about them are classified - and thus the fact that you HAVE information about them, that's probably about the best answer you'll get, assuming you get this much.

 

As you can imagine, same stuff goes for attacking ... though you can deduce some information from some of the standard intercept patterns that are available out there.

[EtherealN]

my opinion is that here i will not get answer :)

 

Of course you wont. There are actual fighter pilots (past and present) who do read this forum, but it's not like they have the liberty to just blabber on about what their tactics are...

 

Seriously - I have a friend who did his military service as a guard on a submarine base, and he is not allowed to say even how many pens there are. That information is out there on the net, and there's been documentary crews down there so I can find that out easily anyhow - but he's still not allowed to say. So the odds of fighter pilots giving detailed instructions on a web forum... Yeah. ;)

[Pyroflash]

The odds of some fool logging on and giving you false advice while posing to be a pilot however are pretty high up there.

[GGTharos]

They usually get discovered quite quickly, so, no.

[Pirke77]

is all things in world TOP SECRET ---...---

 

i am so tired from this i think is time for truth ...

 

 

 

The X-Files

 

 

S!

Edited February 15, 2011 by Pirke77

[GGTharos]

No Pirke, but even if things are not TOP SECRET, people with clearance are simply not allowed to talk about it, period.

 

We might even learn the details of how a specific missile works for example, and it might be correct, but a pilot might not say a thing about it unless they have been otherwise permitted to.

 

The general things I told you are true and usually supported by pilots, because they are general - not specific defenses against specific missiles.

 

Ie.:

 

Put missile on the beam

All missile-evasion maneuvers should be done with sufficient speed and out-of plane (because this increases miss distance due to number of factors, and may cause the fuze to fail either literally or just make it miss the aircraft)

Use countermeasures (Chaff, flares, jammers)

Force look-down (give the missile some noise to worry about)

 

 

From there on, there are secret things like the probability of your missiles actually hitting your target depending on what he does and what jammer he carries, the same for you - what exact angles you should try aproaching the bandit at, what is the likelyhood that your jammer will flat out deny him a shot until you have taken yours, etc etc. All that stuff is secret and tends to change over the course of time.

 

is all thing in world TOP SECRET ...---...

[effte]

Seriously - I have a friend who did his military service as a guard on a submarine base, and he is not allowed to say even how many pens there are.

 

There are 24,187 erasers though.

 

But now that you know, I have to kill you. :P

 

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

[Pirke77]

ok

thnks GGTharos

[Adder1606688006]

Is this information available for older technology? I'm thinking in terms of a real 80's DCS with F-15 vs Su-27.

[GGTharos]

Not really. There are some bits and pieces but the same generalities apply.

Edited February 15, 2011 by GGTharos

[Frazer]

Pirke, haven't you seen Top Gun?!

 

Geez! :D

[GGTharos]

Most educational A2A movie evar! :D

[golfsierra2]

is all things in world TOP SECRET ---...---

 

NATO SECRET, US Eyes only, VS Geheim etc is good enough. Tactics manuals usually are not TOP SECRET.

[Pirke77]

:)

[Geskes]

Fighter pilots might not tell you much here but they do write books :)

 

I recommend this book if you want to get into Air Combat Maneuvring:

 

"Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvring" by Robert L. Shaw. It goes into depth on ACM, also on missile offense and defense.

 

You can get it on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1

 

I also attach a public US NAVY document about air combat maneuvring which I have pulled off a navy publication site and found a good read also. It is kind of like lecture material in slide form for use in the class-room. Covers both WVR and BVR and even has questions to test your understanding of the material!

USN ACM Guide.pdf

Edited February 16, 2011 by Geskes

[Jinro]

The cockpit of the UH-1 is still "classified", or so I was told (read "yelled at") by a Marine while I was taking pictures of one at an airshow......yet all the parents got to take pictures of their kids inside the cockpit.....

 

If Vietnam era stuff is still "classified", what isn't?

[Pirke77]

I am asking all this because i need all information for attack and defense

in BvR fight with Mig29A vs F15C in all stages of fight in real life situations.

 

THNKS :)

[GGTharos]

Use a worm approach to take advantage of the notch and try to sneak a shooter in close - this is the tactic that was taught to MiG-23 and MiG-29 piltos since the F-15's offensive avionics are superior. If you're not outnumbering the F-15's though, you have to count on the pilots not being too bright.

 

In a MiG-29A, your success ratio vs. an AMRAAM-toting F-15C in a head-on confrontation should be low. Very low.

[RIPTIDE]

I am asking all this because i need all information for attack and defense

in BvR fight with Mig29A vs F15C in all stages of fight in real life situations.

 

THNKS :)

Mig-29A = Point defence.

F-15C = Air Superiority.

 

They have different roles completely.

[Pirke77]

Use a worm approach to take advantage of the notch and try to sneak a shooter in close - this is the tactic that was taught to MiG-23 and MiG-29 piltos since the F-15's offensive avionics are superior. If you're not outnumbering the F-15's though, you have to count on the pilots not being too bright.

 

In a MiG-29A, your success ratio vs. an AMRAAM-toting F-15C in a head-on confrontation should be low. Very low.

 

i agree with you about that.

 

but in FC2 MiG-29A in a head-on BvR with rockets or guns only can win against full weapon loaded F-15C ???

 

look my test track i fly and you will see what i talking about.

 

 

Mig29A vs F15C both with rocket 3 ways of fight:

 

http://www.2shared.com/file/t7KgxfGv/BvR.html

 

 

Mig29A only guns vs F15C full weapon loaded:

 

http://www.2shared.com/file/XiDlspr0/BvR_sa_topovima.html

 

 

In real life is this possible to do ???

 

THNKS.

[Pirke77]

(hopefully never again)

 

i agree with you ...

 

S!

[vanir]

I sometimes hear interesting comments from a known fighter pilot at an aircraft forum, there are one or two around. As mentioned however these are very generalised comments you couldn't use as technical specification if you tried.

I remember an Eagle pilot mentioning when the AMRAAM was first equipped the latest version of the Sparrow was more reliable so remained in loadouts (eg. 4 Sparrow, 2 Amraam, 2 AIM9 as a loadout), but it was quickly fixed, a teething thing I guess. But then I couldn't qualify the statement, I don't know the context, details weren't given, it was just a passing comment though the speaker was a known Eagle pilot at the aviation forum.

I certainly couldn't picture him giving a detailed rundown on the technical specifications and use.

 

From my impressions the team here at ED have an extremely accurate working knowledge of period armaments within the boundaries of a commercial sim/game environment. I wouldn't presume to compare it to actual military technologies but in terms of capturing a simulation feel they've done a terrific job of providing player immersion for even the hardcore militaria enthusiast.

 

Most of my friends can't even play Lomac, they say it's too hard.

[vanir]

i agree with you about that.

 

but in FC2 MiG-29A in a head-on BvR with rockets or guns only can win against full weapon loaded F-15C ???

 

look my test track i fly and you will see what i talking about.

 

 

Mig29A vs F15C both with rocket 3 ways of fight:

 

http://www.2shared.com/file/t7KgxfGv/BvR.html

 

 

Mig29A only guns vs F15C full weapon loaded:

 

http://www.2shared.com/file/XiDlspr0/BvR_sa_topovima.html

 

 

In real life is this possible to do ???

 

THNKS.

 

There are some good reads of MiG versus F-15 and F-16 at the website F-16.net as one of the posters there is a lecturer for the USAF Fighter Weapons School and has a lot of flying hours in all three types.

He gave a very good rundown of their comparative strengths and weaknesses, supported by Luftwaffe comments about their MiGs in comparative evaluations and dissimilar training.

 

Some glaring conclusions were surprising, the Eagle is better at low altitude than the MiG, the MiG is better at medium altitude, I would've thought it would be the other way around but the Eagle has a much, much tougher structure for violent low alt manoeuvres. At medium altitude however the MiG can bring its nose around quicker and is just as fast.

 

Thing is though as altitudes rise for contacts you've a higher likelihood of BVR and the Eagle reigns supreme here, even an F-16 is worlds ahead of the MiG in BVR. The main problem is the analogue set on the MiG which has processor overload and poor target discrimination. Lookdown is poor. BVR is almost non-existent for the 29A but the Topaz set is supposed to be a slight improvement.

 

The navigation system in the MiG is also useless, with only two preprogrammable waypoints and poor radios. They're very short range, very dependent upon field ground stations.

 

The biggest advantage it had was the Archers and helmet designator, and numbers, the Luftwaffe conclusion was they were useless as a front line NATO fighter, suitable in western inventories only for dissimilar flight training purposes.

 

Against the vipers they were slower at low altitude and couldn't pull the same g's consistently (they started cracking around the base of the fins), they have speed limitations, they're high maintenance, the burners use fuel like it's going out of fashion and they carry a small load necessitating external tankage.

 

They have some AoA advantages because the pilot can manually switch off the safety system whereas the later vipers always have the limiter on. The F-16 is much easier to fly well though and has better SA, BVR and speed performance, whereas the MiG forces the pilot to work very hard to match NATO contemporaries.

 

It is dangerous to its competitors without a doubt, but the pilot has to work hard for this.

[FLANKERATOR]

There are some good reads of MiG versus F-15 and F-16 at the website F-16.net as one of the posters there is a lecturer for the USAF Fighter Weapons School and has a lot of flying hours in all three types.

He gave a very good rundown of their comparative strengths and weaknesses, supported by Luftwaffe comments about their MiGs in comparative evaluations and dissimilar training.

 

Some glaring conclusions were surprising, the Eagle is better at low altitude than the MiG, the MiG is better at medium altitude, I would've thought it would be the other way around but the Eagle has a much, much tougher structure for violent low alt manoeuvres. At medium altitude however the MiG can bring its nose around quicker and is just as fast.

 

Thing is though as altitudes rise for contacts you've a higher likelihood of BVR and the Eagle reigns supreme here, even an F-16 is worlds ahead of the MiG in BVR. The main problem is the analogue set on the MiG which has processor overload and poor target discrimination. Lookdown is poor. BVR is almost non-existent for the 29A but the Topaz set is supposed to be a slight improvement.

 

The navigation system in the MiG is also useless, with only two preprogrammable waypoints and poor radios. They're very short range, very dependent upon field ground stations.

 

The biggest advantage it had was the Archers and helmet designator, and numbers, the Luftwaffe conclusion was they were useless as a front line NATO fighter, suitable in western inventories only for dissimilar flight training purposes.

 

Against the vipers they were slower at low altitude and couldn't pull the same g's consistently (they started cracking around the base of the fins), they have speed limitations, they're high maintenance, the burners use fuel like it's going out of fashion and they carry a small load necessitating external tankage.

 

They have some AoA advantages because the pilot can manually switch off the safety system whereas the later vipers always have the limiter on. The F-16 is much easier to fly well though and has better SA, BVR and speed performance, whereas the MiG forces the pilot to work very hard to match NATO contemporaries.

 

It is dangerous to its competitors without a doubt, but the pilot has to work hard for this.

 

Interesting overview, thought the vipers have that MPO switch (manual pitch override) near the throttle and can disable the limiter. This switch is normally used to recover from departures but can be used also to gain some extra angles in a dogfight for example.