IGLA

[GateCrasherVI]

Wow. I just finished reading this thread in its entirity. I kinda didn't want to revive a thread that has the passive aggressive history this one does, but... its been a long time. I'm sure wounds have healed.

 

I didn't create an account to drop in and stir the pot here or anything. I genuinely wanted to see if anyone cares to share their revolutionary Igla experiences they've had, if any.

 

So, heres my reason for dropping in. I think its worth a chuckle in retrospect.

Two weeks ago I bought most of the DCS World collection. And I think I've made great progress. I've been making a few simply missions to test out various A-10c systems, and memorize the weaponry that I might be ducking and how I might better utilize it in custom missions to create an extensive and immersive experience.

 

So a couple days ago I decided it was time to familiarize myself with surface-air anti-aircraft munitions. So I create a string of waypoints, each of which fly over a new unique type of AA equipment. So one by one I could memorize what each one was like dealing with.

 

...so...just out of sheer dumb luck, what is it that I put as the first stop on this insta-death bus-tour of sucks-ville? Yep. A 4000 down to 3000 ingress near not just an Igla waiting up ahead, but two Comm Iglas providing my bird the red carpet. I had NO idea what I had done to myself and proceeded to spend four hours finishing up what I'm sure is an otherwise awesome mission to survive and make it home after...but I've just about blown a forehead vessel restraining the flood of curses every time an Igla rat-mazes its way through a dozen flares, and explodes my everything into flaming fire of f...fosphorus... sorry... its frustrating.

 

THATS why I couldn't stop reading this thread. I HAVE to know how this pestilence is exterminated. I'm thinking it REQUIRES some kind of spotter craft flying around out of its range? I suppose attack aircraft should have spotter stuff out there anyway right?

 

SO! I'm going to keep trying different things to get past !WAYPOINT ONE! of my "Rookie Mission" here, and will definitely hop back in if I find something with substantial results.

[WildBillKelsoe]

The general rule with IGLA is to fly higher than 12,000 ft. once fired upon, there is no way to detect its direction unless level. grab some 87's and spread the word, Hog style!

[esb77]

Well it's nice to see that Eagle Dynamics has increased spending on training for Russian Army and allied forces enough so that they're actually firing their Iglas at enemy aircraft.

 

A bit of trivia about the Georgian theater. In the 2008 war all of the Su-25s confirmed as lost to air defenses were lost to Iglas fired by the Russian Army and South Ossetians 'advised' by Russians. It wasn't overdeveloped inter-service rivalry, it was just that the Air Force never bothered to tell the Army that they were sending in support flights. Oh, and also the Igla operators felt that using the IFF function was a needless waste of time. If the account I read was accurate in at least one case the shot down pilot was rescued by the unit that shot him down.

 

General rules of Iglas:

• Where there are trees there are Iglas.
  
• Where there are buildings there are Iglas.
  
• Where there are helpless supply trucks there are Iglas.
  
• Where there are trees or buildings you will not see the Iglas no matter how much time you spend looking.
  
• The range of an Igla is at least 2 km longer than whatever you think the maximum possible range of an Igla is.
  
• The Igla likes you more than it likes your wingman, even if your wingman is the sexiest woman in the world it still likes you better.
  
• If your wingman is an AI this will make him very jealous and he will do everything he can to steal the Igla away from you.
  
• If you fly your plane into the ground the Igla will usually get bored and go do something else instead of chasing you, but not always.
  
• Iglas are good at multitasking, they can hit your plane, your flares, and the neighbor's annoying dog that keeps pooping on the Igla's lawn.
  
• The Igla comm man does not fire Iglas. He is lying down because he is taking a nap. Please do not wake him up, he is very tired.
  
• Iglas can not miss, partly miss, or mostly miss. A well built plane can take two partly misses or five mostly misses. Not misses can destroy entire Aviation Wings.
  
• Iglas know that pilots love them best because life would be so boring without Igla surprise parties.
  
• Igla fun isn't real Igla fun until you're using line of sight weapons below a low cloud deck.
  

[Nealius]

It seems that we are approaching more realistic MANPAD behaviour now. The trick should be to pop flares prophylactically to deny the MANPAD a lock, because the flare rejection on those buggers makes it next to impossible to shake them once they have a solid lock on you.

 

Hopefully this will lead to more realistic missions where JTAC doesn't tell you to do gun runs against a column smattered with MANPADs.

[kk0425]

Hopefully this will lead to more realistic missions where JTAC doesn't tell you to do gun runs against a column smattered with MANPADs.

 

Hopefully this. I remember one time I had 3 or 4 gbu-12s left and the JTAC cleared me in for a gun run and I'm just thinking to myself, "I know I'm going to get shot down by a MANPAD but here goes anyway." Sure enough, I get close to the trucks ready to fire the cannon when my MWS goes off. I start dumping flares and dodge the first one, but the second and third caught me.

 

Edit: And I've found a way to defeat them most of the time. Each time I was launched at (and survived) I was between 5,000 and 10,000 ft msl. The CMS program I use is 1 flare every .45 seconds for 5 cycles while beaming it. As soon as I detect the launch I do a split S which seems to make the missile bite the flares almost every time, and if it doesn't, there's a good chance I'll make it overshoot. Bad news is that for each attempt, I knew exactly where it was coming from so I could watch for the puff of smoke and make sure it was on either my 3 or 9 o'clock. Also I wasn't carrying any ordinance aside from guns and was only at 60% fuel.

Edited September 24, 2013 by kk0425

[Hot_LZ]

Does anyone know how well these IR threats are modelled?

[GGTharos]

They're reasonably representative of what you'd have to worry about in the modern battlefield.

[Hot_LZ]

So something like a throttle chop could help? Or flying into a cloud? Or maneuvering to keep your engines out of sight or as far covered as possible?

[GGTharos]

The only signal line-of-sight simulation is for land. Clouds may be added as IR and visual LOS blockers at some point, but not in this iteration of the engine.

 

Forward quarter IR signal is smaller than rear quarter and beam signal. I don't recall if throttle chop has any effect - probably little to none.

[kk0425]

I thought I read somewhere by one of the testers/moderators that the heat signature has 3 different values. Idle, somewhere in the middle, and afterburner.

 

Could be wrong though.

[ralfidude]

I can confirm Throttle chop helps.

 

I never thought it was modeled so I never bothered, butt then I was told to try. After a few tests, I can confirm that it makes it so that a combination of a throttle chop, Charlie CMS program, and sharp maneuver, will help you a lot.

 

This does not always work, but I have found the missiles diverting to flares or losing lock with this technique about 50% of the time. More or less.

 

Give it a shot (Literally)

[Donglr]

well, i never tried it, but my first thought was that the engines react really slowly. So it will take them some valuable seconds to cool down and when the IGLA gets launched you are already close and have little reaction time. But if the more experiences pilots say so I'll give it a try.

[Ganesh]

I can confirm Throttle chop helps.

 

I never thought it was modeled so I never bothered, butt then I was told to try. After a few tests, I can confirm that it makes it so that a combination of a throttle chop, Charlie CMS program, and sharp maneuver, will help you a lot.

 

This does not always work, but I have found the missiles diverting to flares or losing lock with this technique about 50% of the time. More or less.

 

Give it a shot (Literally)

Good informations Ralfidude

 

well, i never tried it, but my first thought was that the engines react really slowly. So it will take them some valuable seconds to cool down and when the IGLA gets launched you are already close

i can imagine that an idle/full throttle difference is programmed

 

but i can hardly belive that cooling-down-times from engines are modeled

Edited September 25, 2013 by Ganesh

[Hot_LZ]

Engines can cool down 200-300 degrees in within about 2 seconds, no problem. It's a big difference.

[GateCrasherVI]

I'm totally relieved that the Iglas are an ongoing process as far as the programming goes.

 

I know part of the A-10 layout incorporated engine heat visibility, and to my understanding that was one of the main reasons the turbines are in what looks like such a strange place. Would turning my exhaust away from the missile (incidentally, pointing my nose more toward the missile a little) help or hurt?

 

I'm not sure if engine heat sig is modeled in such a way that the other parts of the plane such as wings, pit, armament, could obscure the seekers view of the heat sig. Or if the decreasing distance to the missile would merely reduce the distance it needed to travel to hit what was already an obvious target for it, regardless of how I tried to hide my heat

[Maverick-X]

I don't know is the Igla was changed recently. Been away for quite some time and jumped back into the Hog yesterday. Just did a bit of OP-Bactria and I've been stupid again:

 

Many Inf in the Woods, tired of looking for them and on to drop a bomb. Igla gets launched at me, and then the noob came back: "you only need one more second till drop... you can wait one second, can't you?!"

So after the release I thought "great, you're dead... I thought I've got rid of this behaviour..." but no! Preemtive Flares (1/second) worked very well. Tried that about 2 times more without firing because I got curious, and got the Igla every time.

 

I can't remember this really worked half a year ago, or have I been extremely lucky?

 

PS: engines were Idle ;-)

[AtaliaA1]

I could swear I read an article that suggest a roll out was the best evasive maneuver, because it leaves the heat signature to the right or left of you. and the rocket isn't able to make the quick turns to stay locked?

[GGTharos]

I could swear I read an article that suggest a roll out was the best evasive maneuver, because it leaves the heat signature to the right or left of you. and the rocket isn't able to make the quick turns to stay locked?

 

Was it a home made paper-tube launched missile? Because real anti-air missiles don't have trouble with maneuvers ... They act faster than aircraft and the people piloting those aircraft. There are specific last ditch maneuvers out there, but a rollout doesn't resemble any of them :-P

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

[allmhuran]

Much of this thread (like many other threads on the DCS board) seems to vastly overestimate how much realism has been coded into this computer game.

 

In the game, there will be good and bad ways to do various things, and they will almost certainly not be the same as the IRL reaction. Case in point... pre-emptive flares did absolutely nothing *in the game* until a recent patch, and it's still not absolutely clear that this has been properly fixed.

 

We are at the whim of the developers, chaps. Looking up real performance envelopes, tactics, etc on fas or wikipediate may do more harm than good.

[Hamblue]

Here's a video that shows how to do it :D

If in a hurry fast forward to 2:00

 

http://www.imdb.com/video/demo_reel/vi3929973785/

[Flagrum]

In the game, there will be good and bad ways to do various things, and they will almost certainly not be the same as the IRL reaction. Case in point... pre-emptive flares did absolutely nothing *in the game* until a recent patch, and it's still not absolutely clear that this has been properly fixed.

... and that is why tactics and procedures are discussed - like in this thread.

[GGTharos]

Much of this thread (like many other threads on the DCS board) seems to vastly overestimate how much realism has been coded into this computer game.

 

In the game, there will be good and bad ways to do various things, and they will almost certainly not be the same as the IRL reaction.

 

How do you know?

 

We are at the whim of the developers, chaps. Looking up real performance envelopes, tactics, etc on fas or wikipediate may do more harm than good.

 

Ah, for a moment I thought you were being serious :D

[allmhuran]

I am quite serious.

 

How do I know? I know because the game cannot simulate reality perfectly. Therefore there will be differences in what makes for an optimal strategy.

 

Imagine for example if, in real life, the loudness of your engine wasn't a factor, because everyone had super hearing (or everyone was deaf). Imagine if metal didn't glint in the sun, or that people couldn't see glinting metal. Do you think air combat tactics might be different? I certainly do.

 

Look, I know we all want to feel like we are flying the real thing. As if we could just jump into a real A-10 after this and be instant experts. And hey, it's a great program. But it's still a program.

 

When was the last time you ran in on a target coming out of the sun in order to make you invisible, and with your engines near idle to make you inaudible? Never? Well good, because neither of those things make a lick of difference in the game.... Ralfi and others posted an excellent set of test results showing that enemies will engage you at fixed ranges, so clearly this kind of detail isn't simulated. But this isn't just minor detail, it's been fundamental tactics since air forces first flew.

 

Have you been popping flares on your run in? Were you doing it a couple patches ago? Well those pre-emptive flares were a waste. So if you were employing this real life tactic, you were doing yourself more harm than good.

 

When was the last time you went for a Mk 82 run against a SAM site? Complete suicide, yes? Well, this is what a real A10 pilot was doing when he got hit during desert storm. Do you really think a pilot would do this in real life if there was a certainty of getting launched on, and a near certainty of getting hit? Of course not, but the game can't simulate reality perfectly, and doing this in the game would, indeed, be certain death.

[GGTharos]

So in other words you just know a thing or two and you've made a lecture of it :)

[allmhuran]

Not sure what you're trying to say there. Since you are "Moderator / ED Testers Team" it stands to reason that you are likely to defend the game vigorously against any perceived slight, so perhaps you have perceived what I have said as an attack and are therefore reacting with some kind of belittling statement. But what I am saying is not a slight. The program is great fun, it's just *not reality*, and treating it as though it were is a mistake.