The beginners learning thread

[dnme]

DNME, hopefully you'll find this helpful. Please let me know what you would like to see added or just general comments. I'll try to put together another one this weekend showing adjusting time of day, weather, etc...

 

 

 

Revelation, This is a brilliant and thank you so much. It makes me feel very lazy and I can assure you that is not the case. It's great to get a succinct, simple, concise insight into the mission editor. Video is a very strong medium especially in the modern day web 2.0 scenario. I learn from video so much quicker than text.

 

Thank you again

[chaos]

, constantly having to correct, as I get nearer, these corrections get bigger and bigger. I am working on my inputs trying to keep them gentle and minimal. I guess this is down to practice

 

dnme,

 

As you get closer, corrections should be getting smaller. Once you're established on final, try to let go of the stick once in a while and observe what happens. Make sure you've trimmed the aircraft!

[Zorg_DK]

Hi leafer

I am using a brand new x52 Pro out of the box with no profile. Find it a bit jumpy tbh.

 

I have a X52 Pro as well. I agree it's too jumpy stock. I have set curves under axis tune to +15 in options (in game). That adds a nice amount of stabilization.

[Lange_666]

Make sure you've trimmed the aircraft!

 

That's something i would not do because you handle an extra control of your aircraft at a moment you have difficulties to learn how to use the major controls of the aircraft. On his first few flights with no weapons loaded, there is not much need for trimming anyway. Trim is only needed in a later stage of the learning curve when he knows what the impact is on his controls. It's more important to get a good "stick feeling" first.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

That's something i would not do because you handle an extra control of your aircraft at a moment you have difficulties to learn how to use the major controls of the aircraft. On his first few flights with no weapons loaded, there is not much need for trimming anyway. Trim is only needed in a later stage of the learning curve when he knows what the impact is on his controls. It's more important to get a good "stick feeling" first.

 

Sorry but that's not true at all. A good landing follows a stable approach, and you're not going to be stable if you're out of trim.

[Lange_666]

dnme says that his controls are jumpy (way to much input because he's following the needles) and you don't compensate that with trim. Trim is to get your plane back in balance.

If you have difficulties controlling the aircraft (and i don't mean difficulties because of unbalanced aircraft, weather, damage etc...) it's more important to "learn" to control the aircraft by use of the stick and the stick alone.

Trim adds another input on top of the controls he's trying to master. He doesn't need that right now because he will forget how much trim he added to any of his controls due the workload he has right now.

On the landing training mission, almost no trim is needed. The less trim he uses, the better he learns how much input in required on the controls to control his aircraft, the better he gets in controlling it.

That's the most important part in his learning curve right now.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Lange_666

[effte]

I (in real-life flying) usually trim for a slightly high approach speed, meaning I need to use positive back pressure on short final when reducing the speed. This makes the aircraft easier to control, as you're not going from positive to negative elevator pressure, and also allows you to get a better feel for what the aircraft is doing. I find this especially valuable in pitch-sensitive aircraft.

 

It also means that neutral elevator pressure will give you a bit of a speed margin during the early phases of the approach - good if you catch a wind shear or an abrupt gust. Or if the lump in front should go deafeningly silent.

 

Letting go of the stick would obviously be bad - but why would you? In fact, you should never do that while handling an aircraft anywhere near the ground.

[MrYenko]

Last night, I looked into buying Flaming Cliffs 2 as a way to learn an easier sim before taking on this one. I found the Lockon shop very confusing. I can but a download of FC2 but I must buy LOMAC in order for it to work. LOMAC is only available as a DVD (can't be downloaded). Bit of a mess if you ask me.

 

If you're in the US, call around to your local Best Buys for a copy of Lock-On Platinum. It's both LOMAC and FC2 in one box, and its like $20. :smilewink:

[ARM505]

This is actually quite interesting, and again makes me wonder what an experienced sim pilot could do in the real aircraft. I know, I know, we've had this discussion a million times, but I'll wager that almost all experienced sim pilots here jumped (or could have, RTFM notwithstanding :) ) into the A10 on the 1st install, and flew a circuit - I know I did. You only need your stick, throttle, rudder, F, shift F, and G - simple. Hell, I even managed to take the Blackshark off the deck and put it down without braking it on the first go, blind, and I'm sure there are guys here who are lightyears better than I am.

 

What I'm saying is the basic actions and thought processes are the same for a modern sim as they are for the real deal when it comes to just making it around the circuit in one piece. Sure, IRL you get ALL the theory in plenty of detail, and you get the basics done thoroughly - but when it comes to just making it succesfully around the pattern, you can get by on just the basics alone. And I fly real aircraft for a living, and have a couple of thousand hours of instruction IRL too - so, the OP has really got his/her hands full when jumping into such a complex sim. Respect. Persevere, and you'll get there. It's almost an unreasonable amount of stuff that you're supposed to know before you even lift off, so you really have your hands full if you're starting from scratch. We kind of take a lot of it for granted by now.

 

Someday I'm going to chuck an experienced sim pilot into a 172 and see what happens if I tell them 'its all yours' pre-taxi. I'll give them a little briefing on stick forces and controls, but thats it. Should be worth a lol or two. :)

[Flamin_Squirrel]

dnme says that his controls are jumpy (way to much input because he's following the needles) and you don't compensate that with trim. Trim is to get your plane back in balance.

If you have difficulties controlling the aircraft (and i don't mean difficulties because of unbalanced aircraft, weather, damage etc...) it's more important to "learn" to control the aircraft by use of the stick and the stick alone.

Trim adds another input on top of the controls he's trying to master. He doesn't need that right now because he will forget how much trim he added to any of his controls due the workload he has right now.

 

Well if the OP is finding keeping the aircraft straight and level a challenge, then he should practice that first then, no?

 

And chasing needles, if the OP trying to land using the ILS and flight director?

[MasterZelgadis]

You should not trim in the middle of your approach. Start a few miles away from the runway, at 2,000 ft. Point the Marker at the runway , set a constant speed ant rim her to hold that descend. Then you have enough time to make corrections with the stick.

 

Also set a deadzone for your stick in the menu, and a curve, like Zorg said

[kylania]

I've never gotten trim to work. I end up constantly retrimming and overtrimming endlessly. Far more work than simply holding the stick where it needs to be. Black Shark's trim system was great. A-10C's is a nightmare.

[chaos]

I've never gotten trim to work. I end up constantly retrimming and overtrimming endlessly. Far more work than simply holding the stick where it needs to be. A-10C's is a nightmare.

 

Trimming in A-10C can be done accurately and quickly. I was too lazy to look up the keypresses until 2 weeks ago when I decided to map it to the stick. I won't "fly" without it now. Are you sure you've done it correctly? It works really well. Just 'click' your trim-button instead of holding and releasing it.

Edited November 21, 2010 by chaos

[kylania]

I must be doing it wrong than. I'll tap it say, once and it'll slowly start to move, but then it'll over compensate and keep going, so I tap it again the other direction and that'll just go too far again. Even wing up/down never remains centered it always slowly tilts the wrong way or too far.

 

Someone should do a video about trimming, since I'm obviously not understanding it right. :)

[MasterZelgadis]

I mapped the trim to my main coolie hat (X52 Pro) and removed the camera control from it. With TrackIR I won't need it anyway.

In Flaming Cliffs 2 I mapped the trim to the Rotation axis.

 

Still trying to find out, which one I find better

[sweinhart3]

I use trim all the time. You can keep the aircraft fairly level hands off after you trim but you have to maintain your speed. If you accelerate or decelerate the aircraft will ascend or descend accordingly. I find trim particularly useful to keep it from banking cause it tends to want to bank left or right as you unload your ammo.

[kylania]

If you accelerate or decelerate the aircraft will ascend or descend accordingly.

 

The mere act of trimming causes your plane to accelerate or decelerate since your pitch has changed now, causing you to have to trim again. :doh:

 

Attached is a track of my practicing trim. Does the amount of movement seem normal for you guys?

 

First I trimmed to level flight, but it kept slowly see-sawing. Then I dropped that large bomb and re-trimmed. Then the small ones. Finally I trimmed again and it seemed pretty stable but I was slightly nose up. I gently tapped the trim nose down and ended up doing a wave pattern movement and lost 2000 ft altitude eventually. Finally I reset trim and bank off to the right, probably since I had the TGP there pulling me down.

trim.trk

[dnme]

If you're in the US, call around to your local Best Buys for a copy of Lock-On Platinum. It's both LOMAC and FC2 in one box, and its like $20. :smilewink:

 

MrYenko

Unfortunately, I'm in Ireland. Dont think Platinum is available to us:(

[chaos]

Kylania,

 

I've watched your track and have a few comments to make. The overall impression I get is that you fly the aircraft by trimming... mistake (sort of..). Use the stick for that.

 

The mere act of trimming causes your plane to accelerate or decelerate since your pitch has changed now, causing you to have to trim again. :doh:

 

It's meant to do that :) You trim for speed. Try this; maintain level flight at whatever speed hands off. Now tap the trim switch up 2 or 3 times and keep your hands off the stick. You will see the aircraft starting to climb and do this see-sawing you're talking about. Keep hands off and let it do it's thing (speed things up by pressing Ctrl+Z if you like). Eventually it will settle back down, except your speed is now less than what you started with.

 

Attached is a track of my practicing trim. Does the amount of movement seem normal for you guys?

 

Trimming is a 'continuous' process. Whenever your speed changes (or a change in configuration) so does trim. However, once you've trimmed the aircraft you should be able to fly hands-off (meaning a constant flightpath angle at constant speed). The whole idea of trimming is to take away the need to constantly having to pull/push the stick. The stickforces should be zero if you're flying at a constant speed and flightpath

 

I suggest you practice by doing speed changes in level flight and try to trim away the stickforces to get a feel for it. If you encounter any problems I'd be happy to try and help you out.

Edited November 21, 2010 by chaos

[Flamin_Squirrel]

The mere act of trimming causes your plane to accelerate or decelerate since your pitch has changed now, causing you to have to trim again. :doh:

 

No it doesn't. You might be missunderstanding how to trim?

 

To trim, hold the stick in position to maintain desired attitude (preferably while at a fairly constant speed). Assuming the aircraft is out of trim, this will mean having the stick away from the centre. Slowly move the stick back towards the centre, and as you do so, trim towards the position the stick came from.

 

Example: Constant speed, straight and level, and I'm having to push the forwand to maintain straight and level. As I ease the stick back towards centre, I trim in the direction the stick came from i.e. forward on the trim hat (nose down).

 

With a bit of practice you'll be able to do this without changing pitch and therefore speed.

 

It's meant to do that :) You trim for speed. Try this; maintain, say, 250kts level flight. Now tap the trim switch up 2 or 3 times and keep your hands off the stick. You will see the aircraft starting to climb and do this see-sawing you're talking about. Keep hands off and let it do it's thing (speed things up by pressing Ctrl+Z if you like). Eventually it will settle back down, except your speed is now lower.

 

You trim to remove unwanted stick forces, that's all. Don't make it more complecated than it is.

 

As such, keep your hands ON the stick, otherwise you'll have no unwanted stick forces to remove.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Flamin_Squirrel

[chaos]

You trim to remove unwanted stick forces, that's all. Don't make it more complecated than it is.

 

As such, keep your hands ON the stick, otherwise you'll have no unwanted stick forces to remove.

 

Flamin_Squirrel (like the name BTW),

 

It is a demonstration of what happens when you trim. The whole point of keeping hands off the stick is to show what an aircraft does without any input. I'm not suggesting that one should fly into combat with their arms crossed... I hope that is clear.

 

You're saying the same thing as me except you word it differently. Possibly better, I don't know. The point being is that we're trying to show him how to trim. No need to yell, thank you. :)

[Frederf]

I just flew the latest version of the Landing tutorial. HOLY COW, no wonder someone was confused by it. There's a lot more going on there than simple landing practice. 90% of the instruction is about practices not directly related to a typical visual landing.

[Teej]

For what it's worth, I haven't flubbed a landing yet and it's because I landed precisely the same way I've been landing (and teaching people to land) Falcon for years.

 

1 - be at the proper altitude. If you're not seeing the near end of the runway at about -2.5 to -3.0 on the pitch ladder, you're not at the right altitude.

 

2 - Dirty the aircraft. Once you've got the near end of the runway at about -3 degrees, point the nose up/down as needed to put the velocity vector on the near end of the runway, too. Concentrate on slowing the aircraft below landing gear speed (about 250 I think). Get the gear down, "landing flaps", and full speedbrake. As your aircraft slows, bring the nose up to keep the velocity vector on the near end of the runway. When your nose is about 5-6 degrees up, feed in power to maintain that flight path and hold the nose as steady as you can. Use trim to make it easier. With a dirty A-10 you're going to need a high power setting to keep it flying. When you later start trying to land with weapons, only then might you actually need to close the brakes a little bit. An empty airframe with full fuel (which is how you should now be practicing) can (and should) be done at full brakes.

 

3 - Fly your approach with the nose at about 5 degrees above the horizon (A bit lower than in an F-16 where I'd say ~ 8 degrees)

 

4 - Vary the power to walk the velocity vector onto your desired landing point.

 

5 - Speed? Hell if I know. Speed will be what speed will be. It will vary based on how much you're carrying in weapons and fuel. I couldn't care less what number is displayed.

 

The following were written/recorded with Falcon, but the principle is the same.

 

Paul Wilson's excellent text based tutorial: http://www.87th.org/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=22

 

My video tutorial:

Edited November 21, 2010 by Teej

[Teej]

Oh yeah...I'd also suggest a great way to "flare" is to just goose the power a bit. As you're crossing the threshhold, add enough power to make the flight path marker walk down the runway a bit...you're just trying to decrease sink rate a bit.

[aphelion79]

I know that's how its being taught in some flight-schools but it is fundamentally wrong. It's a leftover from the days of Otto Lilienthal.. when aircraft didn't have engines to begin with...

 

You point your aircraft where you want it to go and use throttle to control speed. By suggesting otherwise you make things difficult and confusing. Flying is not rocket-science. People tend to make it more complicated than it really is.

 

Fundamentally wrong, however practically correct. Have you ever tried slow flight and experienced flying "behind the curve"?

 

Basically in this situation, you're creating so much drag that you need to add more power to keep yourself in the air... eventually you get to the point where you're falling out of the sky even with full throttle.

 

This is precisely where the "backwards thinking" comes in that is meant to save your life.

 

For example, coming in on final to an approach you find yourself going too slow, so you add more power... still loosing airspeed and getting dangerously close to stalling you press forward on the throttle only to find the throttle is already fire-walled . Someone without this training may panic and not know what to do. However if you're used to slow flight and have the experience of flying behind the power curve, you know immediately you need to pitch down to gain the airspeed and pray that you can get back on the other side of the curve before you hit the ground. (I.e. Pitch for Airspeed, Power for Altitude)