From SimHQ Review

[hassata]

From the review at http://www.simhq.com/_technology3/technology_174a.html"

 

"Second, it appears that the Cougar’s rudder axis cannot be assigned to a DirectX axis in T.A.R.G.E.T. (the toebrake axes, however, are available). For those with existing rudders connected to the Cougar, this feature is necessary to maintain a single controller with stick, throttle, and rudder axes. I have confirmed that the Scripting language (more on that on the next page) is capable of including the Cougar's rudder axis in a virtual controller. This means that the capability exists and the controllers can be programmed in this way, but it can't be done in the current version of the T.A.R.G.E.T. GUI. Thrustmaster has indicated that this feature will be added to the T.A.R.G.E.T. GUI in the next T.A.R.G.E.T. release."

 

I'm guessing this mens we'll still be able to plug the rudder through the Cougar to a USB port and pick up the Rudder and assign as an axis in A:10C? As far as I can tell, there is not Rudder port to USB convertor that will work without the Cougar.

 

"One very interesting thing that FAST can do is to rotate the electrical response of the joystick grip. This is especially useful for those who wish to center-mount the stick while maintaining an ergonomic shaft angle.

 

Syntax:

 

RotateDXAxis(1st DirectX axis name, 2nd Direct X axis name, twist angle value);

 

Examples:

 

RotateDXAxis(DX_X_AXIS, DX_Y_AXIS, 5); //simulates a 5° twisted side stick like the F-16

RotateDXAxis(DX_X_AXIS, DX_Y_AXIS, -15); //simulates a -15° twisted centered stick like the A-10.

RotateDXAxis(DX_X_AXIS, DX_Y_AXIS, 90); //transform X to Y and Y to X"

 

Boooo-Yaaaah.

[Succellus]

Calm down we still have to see how this rotating feature manage in use.

 

The rudder issue and the no wheel on throttle are the big issues for ww2 flyers.

[jocko417]

"One very interesting thing that FAST can do is to rotate the electrical response of the joystick grip. This is especially useful for those who wish to center-mount the stick while maintaining an ergonomic shaft angle.

 

Syntax:

 

RotateDXAxis(1st DirectX axis name, 2nd Direct X axis name, twist angle value);

 

Examples:

 

RotateDXAxis(DX_X_AXIS, DX_Y_AXIS, 5); //simulates a 5° twisted side stick like the F-16

RotateDXAxis(DX_X_AXIS, DX_Y_AXIS, -15); //simulates a -15° twisted centered stick like the A-10.

RotateDXAxis(DX_X_AXIS, DX_Y_AXIS, 90); //transform X to Y and Y to X"

 

Boooo-Yaaaah.

 

Doesn't matter if you can "rotate" the axis via software if the hardware still uses a box-shaped physical limit of travel. The shaft sticks up through a box-shaped hole:

 

 

Stick shaft hits the edge of the box shaped aperature in roll and pitch axes like this (crude but you get the idea):

 

 

If you want to mount your stick rotated left 15 degrees like in the RL A-10 and then use the software to rotate the axis back to fore and aft you end up with physical stick limits like this:

 

 

IMHO, if you want to have an offset stick you're going to have to wait for a CNC genius to make a physical adapter to go between the stick grip and the shaft... and I'm assuming one will be able to source the type of connectors TM uses to connect the stick grip with the base, it's similar to but not identical to a PS/2 connector.

Edited October 23, 2010 by jocko417

[dimebug]

this is right, this is why the scale axis parameter solve this issue.

[sobek]

Why not rotate the whole base too? I'm finding it counterintuitive to rotate the stick grip but not the movement directions.

[Bwaze]

Well the A-10C stick is rotated to the left by 15 degrees, but that doesn't mean that you have to push 15 degrees to the left to have just the forward motion. It still looks as if the only solution is to mount the base without rotation, and somehow rotate just the grip with the hardware mod. Or is there a way to rotate just the plastic physical limiter, so the whole stick can be rotated and outputs mapped correctly?

[sobek]

Well the A-10C stick is rotated to the left by 15 degrees, but that doesn't mean that you have to push 15 degrees to the left to have just the forward motion.

 

Yes, i know that, still, i'm finding it counterintuitive. Try it, IMHO it sucks not to also rotate the movement axes. I'm finding it way easier to move perpendicular/axial to my forearm direction than in some arbitrary tilted, unrotated way. Try it yourself.

[hassata]

I don't know if I'm missing something, but it seems dead simple to me. Trigger pointed towards the screen=not realistic, not comfortable. I'm going without the plate, but doesn't make a difference.--I rotate stick so that trigger is pointing 15 degrees to left of screen, screw it down and set. Comfortable, realistic, but now I have to pull in 345-165 degree line to get a pure vertical pull. Until I input the above syntax, at which point I can pull straight back in my stomach for a wings level climb.

[jocko417]

The problem is how the stick will react at full travel. It will depend on how the calibration interprets the physical limit when out of the basic 360-180 and 90-270 lines of movement.

 

Look at the pics again, imagine you apply full aileron in one direction and then, while holding the roll input, start adding elevator in either direction. With the stick rotated you will end up rolling less or more depending on which way you add the pitch because the limit the stick is resting against is slanted, not straight fore and aft. If you shove the nose down you start rolling faster, if you raise the nose the roll decreases.

 

Same goes with adding pitch first, at full elevator travel adding a roll input either way from wings level will change the amount of elevator input, left equals more, right equals less.

 

I may be wrong on "more" being added if the software doesn't "see" anything larger than the range of travel along Axes' zero lines based on original calibration. But best case you will still see "less" elevator travel as the stick is moved right of center from the 180 postion for example. See below:

 

 

Based on a simple front/back, left/right stick movement along the axes' zero lines to calibrate the software, the green box represents what the software thinks the range of travel is. That's what it would look like in an unrotated stick. But because the "box" is now skewed, who knows how the software will react at the corners? You will definitely see something wrong where I've shaded the black bits.

 

And this is not yet considering how goofy it will physically feel when moving the stick at it's limits and feeling it moving obliquely instead of side to side and fore and aft.

 

Bwaze: BINGO! Can't believe I didn't think of just changing the plastic aperature. Guess I'm used to thinking like a Cougar owner and about metal and CNC machines ;)

 

Heck, even I could make a new limiter with the tools I have around the house. I'm going to ask Joe from SimHQ about taking some pics of what this thing looks like.

Edited October 23, 2010 by jocko417
edited for "clarity"...

[topdog]

It has been posted (though I won't know for myself for a week or so) that the extents are octagonal anyway, so the square you're seeing may even be somewhat aesthetical (sp?) rather than functional for providing the extents.

 

Whilst that alone doesn't prevent angle differences when it's twisted by amounts other than 45 degrees at a time, it does suggest that the input range is probably more circular than the external appearance suggests. Really going to need some direct hands-on with the thing. Pictures can be so deceiving.

Edited October 23, 2010 by topdog

[jocko417]

I don't the think the limits are octagonal, they just 'feel' octagonal. The Cougar is like that too, something to do with the diameter of the stick shaft being different than the inside diameter of the rounded corners of the aperture.

[jocko417]

Or is there a way to rotate just the plastic physical limiter, so the whole stick can be rotated and outputs mapped correctly?

 

You know, if the part we are talking about is attached via the screws you see on the stick base, and it's a circular piece, it may be as easy as drilling some more holes in it, offset 15 degrees to the left of the originals...

Edited October 23, 2010 by jocko417

[hassata]

You know, if the part we are talking about is attached via the screws you see on the stick base, and it's a circular piece, it may be as easy as drilling some more holes in it, offset 15 degrees to the left of the originals...

 

Thanks for the explanation. I no longer recall where, but I'm pretty sure someone did the above with the Cougar for one reason or another. They even had pics showing the work.

[Callsign.Vega]

In real aircraft, the gate on the stick travel is "squared". The sticks do not rotate 360 deg in a perfect circle.

[hassata]

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2879828/101.html

 

The offset issue is discussed here

 

Edit from Caddy in such thread:

 

"We now know the stick's physical limit of movement is circular, further bounded by a plastic bit with a rounded square hole in it.

 

In discussing the 15 degree offset idea and the associated problem with the 'box' the stick shaft hits at it's limits being also offset, Bwaze suggested one could just change the plastic stick limiter, offset it 15 degrees to the right. Much nicer (read easier and cheaper) solution than my stick shaft adapter idea. Could you post some pics of what the "plastic travel limiter thingy" looks like when uninstalled?

 

If it looks like what I'm hoping (circular), the solution may be as easy as drilling some more mounting holes, 15 degrees off the originals.

 

 

If you can rotate the square window and do software rotation instead of rotating the sensor without measurement blank corners, it means the sensor is configured to cover more area than is necessary for the default "square" of measurement, i.e. There are resolution wasted.

 

Think about it this way. The ideal situation is the sensor is configured to only respond within the square the stick "draws." now, rotate the stick Counter-clock means the sensor chip also rotate w/ it, thus the sensing "square" as well. Say, we rotate 45degree CC-wise. Then, we rotate the square limiter window 45 degree C-wise, so that two sides of it are horizontal. Now, the two squares are 45 degree to each other and the limiter square has 4 corners that are outside of the sensor square, i.e. no-sense areas. In these areas, inside MLX90333, you have to configure them to fixed values, most sensible values will be either 0%(left,bottom), or 100%(right,top). This would not work for you, as moving in these areas produces no change in value. Dead zones!!! Rotate whatever in Target software, and you get the same thing, garbage in garbage out.

 

For this scheme to work, the MLX90333 has to be configured to respond to an area bigger than the actual square limiter (directly related to magnet travel, so I am using these two interchangeably). How much over sized? Sqrt(2) in both x and y directions than the square limiter. Perhaps WH is factory programmed this way, perhaps not. I don't know yet.

 

Maybe TM thought of it and thought since we have plenty of res. available, it is ok to use only 50% of the sensing area, just in case somebody might want to mount the stick rotated and rotate the limiter square. Possible, why not? Beats having to have them send sticks back for reprogrammimg, or replace the chips.

 

I will report back on the programming of the chip. But, if you do modify it as you described and hit dead corners, you now know why you might need to rotate the sensor too."

Edited October 24, 2010 by hassata

[leafer]

I don't know if I'm missing something, but it seems dead simple to me. Trigger pointed towards the screen=not realistic, not comfortable. I'm going without the plate, but doesn't make a difference.--I rotate stick so that trigger is pointing 15 degrees to left of screen, screw it down and set. Comfortable, realistic, but now I have to pull in 345-165 degree line to get a pure vertical pull. Until I input the above syntax, at which point I can pull straight back in my stomach for a wings level climb.

 

If you center mount it then it should twist left about 30 degrees per the real deal.